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17888 No. 17888 edit
Nightmare of the Golden Witch


Admittedly, this is a rather cruel gameboard of high difficulty. Or maybe it's not? I don't know, this is the first time I've done one of these things.

In any case, I present you this challenge. The rules are similar to those in Redaction. I don't have to give a red truth if I think that you're just shotgunning, making a theory without anything to back it up or that there's a flaw in your reasoning/logic. At times like these, I will probably ask a question for you to explain, point out a contradiction or ask for proof. Note, though, when I say proof I just mean hinting/foreshadowing of your solution. No need to find hard evidence proving your blue beyond a shadow of a doubt. Still, I will happily provide reds otherwise.

In any case, the game is the same as always. Deny the witch, find the human culprit, show how they did it!

And, more importantly, remember to have fun. Or... at least try to.

Good luck, fellow Witch Hunters!

Do note that the first murder might not show the cause of death/state of the body, if you find that happens to you, remove formatting. That should fix it.

Last edited at 15/08/10(Mon)23:15:18
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>> No. 17889 edit
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I have seen through thy tricks.

Nightmares are a funny thing, aren't they? They can show us the strangest of things. The worst of things. For some, they simply come and go. To some, they appear and creep into one's subconscious. Haunt them. Like ghosts. Like monsters.

Like demons.

So, what happened here? It's quite simple. The narrative tells us as much.

(Arrival) "With sweaty palms, I grip the medicine in my hands and weigh up whether to take a pill."

From the situation, one would perhaps assume it was for Battle's sea-sickness. But that was just a way to throw us off. The point was -- that, in the end, he did not take it.

(The First Death) "There definitely isn’t any drugs in anyone’s system!”

I propose that Battler suffers from narcolepsy.

The entire game is a shift between the real world and Battler's nightmares.

When closing his eyes at the dinner table, Battler fell asleep. When he opened them, he was in a dream, with only Maria remaining. When he was with Maria, he closed his eyes and re-opened them, back in the real world. He'd locked the door to the room, but only in the dream world. Battler ends up falling into the dream world again, when he slumps against the wall after seeing the sight in the servants' room. From then on, until the end of the game, it's just a nightmare.

Still, there's the question of the cousins' deaths and the disappearance of the servants.

That, too, is simple enough.

The chapter in the servants' room was following an unreliable perspective. The truth is -- the culprit is Gohda. He killed them all. The corpses of Kuamsawa and Gohda were already in the room. But because Battler switched to a dreamworld, they "disappeared" and thus, Nanjo couldn't find them.

>> No. 17893 edit
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What he said.
>> No. 17895 edit
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Oh my. Is that it?! Has my elegant mystery been felled in just one blow~?

Well, not exactly. But it's a very interesting theory to start off with, I'll give you that. Allow me to clarify something in red:

Whether or not Battler is awake or asleep, all reds refer to the real world and not any kind of dream world.

Also, I'm a little confused about your explanation for Kumasawa and Genji's disappearance since even if Battler's viewpoint is unreliable it shouldn't affect Nanjo's viewpoint, no?

Still, I await your next attack.

Last edited at 15/08/03(Mon)19:28:13
>> No. 17897 edit
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No matter I have more.

At the very least, it's obvious that Battler's final section (when meeting the demon and the witch) was a dream. He could've passed out, fallen down the stairs and got the bruise from there. Due to the fact his sense of time was completely distorted, the red truths about Kumasawa and Genji moving around just come down to the culprit moving them around when Battler was out.

Every other time up to that point was also Battler pasing out. But, sure. Regardless if it's opening or closing his eyes, let's assume Battler is always in the real world - just that some time has passed.

Now, this is what I propose.

The culprit is person X. This culprit is of either extremely small and thin stature of a child. Whichever. They are allowed to exist on the island due to the fact that Kinzo is dead, therefore one human is down. Therefore person X can exist and be the 18th human.

Here's what happened:

X was already in the room when Battler and Maria entered. Battler dozed off and X killed Maria. He then simply left the room (the room did not have to be locked with a key, necessarily - after all, it's never mentioned Battler ever used one to lock the door in the first place).

After this, X went to the servants' room. Due to his small stature, he managed to enter through the window (he does not count as "a normal human", after all) and killed everyone there. They then chopped Kumasawa and Genji to pieces for motive reasons, and pulled their body parts through the window, explaining the large pool of blood forming under the table somehow, despite the fact that all the victims had been stabbed in the back and died instantly.

X then simply closed the window from the outside, creating the locked room.

After Battler passed out at the stairs once again, the simply killed Gohda and Nanjo.

>> No. 17900 edit
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Ohohoho, a fascinating counter attack. However, I can point out a few areas that could do with some fleshing out before I'm willing to consider unsheathing some reds.

Your theory requires an unknown Person X, but what evidence do you have to support their existence? Furthermore, the fact that they are ridiculously short?

What do you have to back up another person being in the room with Battler and Maria? And how come neither Battler nor Maria noticed them in there? And, if you're proposing they were hiding somewhere, where exactly did they hide?

Finally, you say Kumasawa and Genji's bodies were pulled through the windows and that's where the killer escaped from however... "none of the windows in the mansion open." Id they can't be opened, then they were never opened. Ever. And, thus, the window shouldn't be a viable place for the killer to escape from.

Besides, what kind of window closes but doesn't open?

>> No. 17902 edit
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I claim that the culprit is, at the very least, a child of some sort -- the theme is implied heavily throughout the game. Lambda, Orobas, Kyonon -- the themes of children are constant throughout the story.

At the very least, I can use Krauss' phone call as evidence that an intruder exists, if nothing else.

The culprit could've easily hidden in the room in which Maria died. Again, he was hiding before Maria and Battler came in, hence, they were not noticed (but even if they could've been noticed -- Maria wouldn't say anything, assuming it was a demon and Battler was too tired to do anything).

The area of their hiding could've been... well, anywhere. The image in the doc shows some places where hiding could've been pulled off, at the very least. Say, under a bed or something.

Window could've been broken. Or been removed from the wall (my proof lies exactly in the fact that the windows never actually open, hence the culprit had to make his escape).

But, alternatively, I can claim that the culprit simply heard about the three-times-knock, got Genji to unlock the door, killed them all, dragged Genji's and Kumasawa's bodies out, then re-set the seal from the outside after locking the door with one of the two master keys. (After all -- if Genji had one to give out in the first place, who says the culprit couldn't have found some more on his person?)

Last edited at 15/08/04(Tue)05:42:17
>> No. 17923 edit
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So, I've been told you've already worked this mystery out with one of my beta-reader's behind the scenes. Congratulations, though it's a shame I missed out on your reaction to the answer...

In any case, for the sake of other players here is my response to your last post.

To begin, how would one remove a window from the wall? And why wouldn't battler comment on it if the window was broken?

Your alternative doesn't work either. Because if the door was opened from the inside, the door would have still ripped the seal. Same with taking it off to reseal it later. And how would the culprit have heard the knocking rule? Where would they have heard it from? And what evidence is there to support it?

Finally, how exactly can an 18th person exist on the island? I should have mentioned this before, but dead or not, Kinzo would still count as a human. Thus, there are 18 humans already. Now, you could argue for two people being the same person... But the only choice supported by Umi canon for that were both seen in the same room at the same time. So, therefore, you'll need to provide some other kind of evidence to back up a way for another person to exist on the island.

Also, hey! Since when were Orobas and Lambda kids! They don't use easy mode, I'll have you know!

Now, then. As a reward for your valiant efforts in asserting someone hiding in the cousin's room...

From the time Battler and Maria enter the room, to the time Battler locks the door, no-one besides Maria and Battler existed in the Cousin's Room.

Last edited at 15/08/05(Wed)02:17:41
>> No. 17925 edit
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Yeah, I ended up working out the solution.

I won't be posting on the thread again, but I encourage anyone that read the game to do so. It's a really good game!
>> No. 17947 edit
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Alright, time for me to leap into the ring, then.

The culprit is Gohda.

Going mystery by mystery:

As has been already theorized, Battler has narcolepsy. I see no reason to dispute that, based on the reasoning given and the facts in the story. That being the case, the disappearance of the adults at dinner is easily explained.

Maria in the cousin's room: also easily explained with narcolepsy and a little unwitting help from Maria. Battler passed out on the couch. During that time, Gohda knocked on the door. Being the helpful little cretin she is, Maria opened the door to let him in. Once inside, he bashed her on the side of her head and cuts her stomach open, to make sure she dies. He then leaves, leaving the door unlocked for Battler to find once he wakes up.

On to the servant's room then. This is where things start getting really tricky, but I'll leave that bit for later. The easy part is that Gohda killed Shannon and Kanon, then Jessica and George. Then he left the guesthouse, applying the seal and locking the door with the master key he had pilfered from Kumasawa and Genji, who were dead at that point so his red truth about them having them when he last spoke to them still holds up. As for what happened with Kumasawa and Genji, that's the tricky bit, so I'll leave that until the end.

So! Battler runs to the mansion and up the stairs, when narcolepsy hits yet again. Nanjo, who was following behind, kneels down to check on him and Genji stabs him in the back. Finally, seeing Battler at the foot of the stairs, Gohda mistakenly thinks that he's dead, so he finishes himself off by blowing his own head off. Battler wakes up, finds all the victims of the first twilight in various rooms, and thus that leaves only him on the island.

Now, my explanation of Genji and Kumasawa. At the end, they are said to be in the VIP Room, where George, Jessica, Shannon, and Kanon were placed after they died. Before that, Gohda had, in red, stated that Genji and Kumasawa were in the servants' room, without mentioning in red that it was time sensitive. This leads us to the conclusion that somehow moving the four bodies into the VIP room also moved Genji and Kumasawa into the VIP room. Now, we are also told that Genji and Kumasawa are in the first room of the second floor, where Kyrie's dead body was found. They are also in the cousin's room, where Maria's corpse remains.

This leads me to the following conclusion: Genji and Kumasawa are already dead, and everyone except for Nanjo is aware of it. During his time on the island, Battler never actually sees them. Natsuhi actually did send the Shannon and Kanon to get the luggage, but then had an Alzheimer's moment and forgot that Genji and Kumasawa were dead, which is why she was confused and asked Jessica where the servants were. She meant Genji and Kumasawa.

With Genji and Kumasawa dead (eh, let's get nuts with it), Maria, Kyrie, Shannon, Kanon, Jessica, George, and pretty much everyone starting helping out more around the mansion, and whenever something got inexplicably cleaned or fixed or served, everyone would smile and say that it was Genji and Kumasawa. They'd also have 'ghost hands' dealt for them in card games. In that way, Genji and Kumasawa were, in a way, everyone, while at the same time only contributing two human bodies to the count, in the same way that dead Kinzo contributes. When they died, Gohda inherited their master key.

I believe that covers just about everything. I have a few other options for the Genji-Kumasawa thing too, but this one is the one I like most.

Kyonon was Gohda. He worked hard all is life to come back and earn the one-winged eagle, but then Kinzo died before it could happen, which caused him to break and kill everyone.

I think that covers everything?
>> No. 17953 edit
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Well, then. If you're willing to step into the ring, it would be rude not to respond with a little red.

I will confirm the trick for your explanation for Maria's murder, if not necessarily your culprit.


Now then... For the rest.

I'll begin with a question... What evidence is there that Gohda is the killer?

Next, I'll counter with a red truth to dispel name tricks.

Only one person, living or dead, can hold a name in this story. In other words, all names are unique to their owners.

Which means that it's impossible for everyone to be Genji and Kumasawa!
>> No. 17956 edit
Just to be clear, that last post was me. I must have forgotten to put my name in, and now I've forgotten the edit password on it. My bad.
>> No. 17959 edit
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Don't worry, I'm not one to accuse without evidence. I hope you're hungry, because I'll serve it up on a silver platter.

Evidence that Gohda is the culprit:

The kitchen is 'pristine and clean' when Battler goes to get his coffee cup. This suggests that Gohda had either prepared dinner long beforehand, or had been around to clean up while the others went to the guest house. Either option makes him look suspicious, as the former suggests he needed the time to do something else, and the latter weakens his alibi.

If we assume that Gohda is the culprit, it follows that anything not in red that occurred in the guest house can be considered possibly false. This allows the parents to be already dead (which gives them a lot more time to be killed), as there need not be a phone call from Krauss to Genji at all. Further evidence that something is off about the guest house story is that there are 6 hands of cards discovered around the table, but if the story is to be believed, there should be seven. George, Jessica, Kanon, Shannon, Kumasawa, Genji, AND Gohda. This seems to indicate that Gohda was at the mansion at the time the game began, killing off the parents, then came to the guest house, got let in, and proceeded to kill the others and set the scene as he wished before leaving to get Battler and Nanjo It would be quite possible to have the only players in the game be Shannon, Kanon, George, and Jessica, and have added two hands to either end of the table to make it look like the others were there.

Additionally, it is very difficult to kill someone instantaneously with a knife, but a chef might be able to be called skilled enough. Furthermore, stabbing meat repeatedly to achieve a more spongelike consistency is a common cooking technique.

It is not said in red that he received the good luck charm from Kumasawa, so that could have been entirely his idea. Furthermore, why would he have Battler check the lock on the door first, before using Genji's secret knock, unless he was establishing that it was actually locked?

At the final deaths, Gohda had his head blown off and Nanjo was stabbed in the back. As there is only one culprit and it is not Battler, it is much easier to assume that Gohda killed Nanjo and shot himself rather than Nanjo shooting Gohda and then somehow stabbing himself in the back, getting rid of the knife, and dying while leaving Battler inexplicably alive.

Evidence that Gohda is Kyonon: Jessica's comment about him reminding her of Grandfather, whom he must have idolized.

And, for dessert:

Final evidence that Gohda is the killer, while also explaining the disappearance of Genji and Kumasawa: If no one else is allowed to use their names, then Natsuhi was remembering them being around correctly. In that case, Genji and Kumasawa have been missing since earlier that day. As I pointed out in my last post, no one actually sees them except in the guest house, which I've already proven could be a fabrication. Then that leaves the question of where the bodies are hidden, and how they get everywhere in the mansion. Well, when I gave the theory that everyone was chipping in to be Genji and Kumasawa, that was because I was in a warm and fuzzy mood. There's another way to hide the bodies and have them be wherever there was a victim. A way that a chef like Gohda would be ideal for.

Genji and Kumasawa were killed, cooked, and eaten. After all, everyone ate the same food. Only the magical Gohda chef could make human so delicious.

I hope you found the meal satisfactory.
>> No. 17960 edit
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Well, damn. I did not expect it to be gotten this fast. Then again, I also didn't anticipate people getting the narcolepsy trick off the bat... Well, then, let's finish this off by revealing the truth to the world!

The Mystery of the Disappearing Parents:
As you all worked out so quickly, Battler Ushiromiya is narcoleptic. As a result, halfway through his coffee (Gohda intentionally used decaf just in case he ever needed to make Battler into a patsy or the like, but you didn't need to work that one out. As for how he knew about Battler's condition, he WAS one of the servants who took Battler's coat...) he passed out. While asleep, everyone left. Not realizing any time had passed, it seemed as if all the adults had disappeared into thin air!

Maria's Murder: Once again, Battler fell asleep. Being semi-concious, he mistook the sounds of knocking as the sounds of his own heartbeat as he fell into a deep slumber. Meanwhile, Maria happily opened the door for the killer, Gohda, who proceeded to go full-Watanagashi on her like's it's 1983! Battler later woke up to see the scene and fled.

The Cousin's Murder: After dinner, Geoge and Jessica retired to the servant's room with Gohda to play cards with Shannon and Kanon. However, upon entering, Gohda proceeded to backstab them. Literally. Shannon and Kanon, meanwhile, were busy being corpses (as Gohda had killed them during or before dinner, either way works.) Upon leaving, Gohda locks the door with the master key he took from Genji or Kumasawa and applies the seal. Easy peasy.

The Disappearance of Genji and Kumasawa:
Let's rewind to before Battler arrived on the island. Gohda corners Genji and Kumasawa in the kitchen and murders them. After all, even Genji admits he's the strongest among them. Next up, he cooks them into that night's dinner and cleans the kitchen spotlessly so that no-one will find any blood or evidence.
So, then, how do their bodies escape the servant's room? Easy! They only existed in there inside George and Jessica's stomachs, so when George and Jessica's bodies were moved out so were theirs. Nanjo's red about them not being in the servant's room was simply a time sensitive one!

Orobas and Lambda's Murder Show:

Finally, as Battler ran up the stairs, he passed out from his narcolepsy and smacked his head on the stairs. Everything, then, in the Orobas chapter was a dream. Well, except the gunshots. Those were happening in reality and the sound simply leaked into Battler's dreams as tends to happen, as Gohda killed each of the parents, after stabbing Nanjo.

Finally, Gohda kills himself using the gun, sending it falling to the ground below the staircase where Battler later finds it. Battler wakes up, looks in one of the rooms, and seeing that it doesn't match up with his dream starts to put it all together. After finally working it out, he kills himself. Ending this story!

I will confirm it once more in red! The killer is Toshiro Gohda, aka. Kyonon! And that is the truth of this forgery!

Well, then, what do you think?
>> No. 17967 edit
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Genji and Kumasawa was inside George and Jessica's stomachs.

It's crafty. However, I think it might be a slippery slope.

You said Genji and Kumasawa bodies escaped the servant's room in George and Jessica's bellies. But didn't they only consumed a portion of Genji and Kumasawa's remains? For instance, let's say George only ate Genji's mushed up heat-seeking missile. I mean, you wouldn't count a severed male sexual organ as a whole body, would you?
>> No. 17970 edit
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I quite enjoyed it! The narcolepsy would definitely have been the hardest point for me, but it was plenty hinted at when I knew what to look for.

Once that was essentially proven true, everything else just sort of fell into place.

Though I still want to know how Gohda actually dealt with the capture and kill on the parents.
>> No. 17971 edit
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Well, sure. It's a bit... sneaky, like that. But Umineko is wordplay central, so I think it's pretty fair. Though, to be clear, what I think makes it okay here is that the amount in George and Jessica's stomach is approximately equal in proportion to all the other parts of Genji and Kumasawa's corpses. So, it's not like there's a really big part and a really small part of their body somewhere else.

Does that make sense?


Glad to hear it! As for how Gohda captured and killed the parents, well... He was armed and prepared, whereas they would have been unarmed and asleep when he started killing them considering it was around 4-5am or so...

Hence, it's not unreasonable that he simply shot them one by one without too much difficulty.

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