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File 144778727488.png - (442.83KB , 640x480 , chess2.png )
20560 No. 20560 edit
I’m opening a new game for anyone who wishes to try and solve it. The more the merrier.

This game is slightly different than most of my gameboards but will be fairly simple. This thread will act as the tearoom and I will dictate what is happening on the gameboard level. After I make a post with [Discussion Open] in it you will be allowed to post your thoughts and ask me questions.

During this time you may even make blue theories however just like in the novel I won’t be obligated to answer in until the end of the game where you will be tasked to explain all the mysteries. I ask you don’t write up a huge analysis in one post for the discussion segments so we can address individual points more easily.

I will post [End of Discussion] once we have decided to move on and I will continue posting the rest of the story until the next one or the end of the game. As you can expect the goal is simple but traditional; you have to explain the events on the gameboard using humans means before the end of the final debate.

There will likely be a real life time-limit to the final debate in order to prevent the game from dragging on too long. The pain of not knowing the answer will continue if you fail to solve it.

The difficulty is… well I usually only make one of those for serious games. This game is very loose to say the least.


The first part will be posted in the upcoming days.
Expand all images
>> No. 20561 edit
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It was a cloudy day on Rokkenjima. Truly a shame, for the Ushiromiya family conference was to take place later that night. Natsuhi looked out the window worried. From the corner of her eye Genji came down the hall and she turned to address him.

“Genji… is father…”

Genji gave his characteristically solemn look and responded “Nanjo says his mind is… starting to go… His health is no better.”

“I see…” Natsuhi held her head low and looked out the window once more before continuing, “Tell my husband right away. We need to be ready for when the others arrive.”


The two parted and above on the top floor the old doctor and his friend continued their conversation.

“You were always stubborn. Nothing I say will make you move then?” Nanjo said.

Kinzo let a weak laugh fall from his lips, “Of course… If I am to perish it will be here… on this island.” He lifted his goblet and took a swig. “Even if you could prolong the inevitable I would be trapped in some hospital. I will live out my last few weeks here. Or maybe months… How long ago did you say I only had months anyway?”

“That was a year ago,” Nanjo gave a small smile.

He chuckled. “I proved you wrong once… I can do it again.” Kinzo walked over to the side of the study staring at the portrait of the blonde haired women. Nanjo was used to this response and took it as his time to leave. As the door clicked open Nanjo could hear the soft whisper of her name over and over…
>> No. 20562 edit
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“Woooah!” Battler yelled as he almost tipped over the edge of the boat.

The other family members were well on their way to the island with it finally being in sight. The cousins were on the deck laughing at Battler’s pitiful display.

“Have you really grown up Battler? If anything you look like the youngest here now!” Jessica mocked.

Maria giggled at this and joined in with the teasing “Uu-uu, Battler is human trash.”

“Wow! What the! When did you get such a foul mouth Maria?” Battler said shocked. Jessica and George tried to calm Maria down. Apparently someone had been watching too much TV unsupervised.

“You know Jessica,” Battler continued after they dealt with Maria. “Don’t think you can use this to act superior. I wouldn’t say you are mature either… at least personality wise.” Battler decided to leave out that last part.

“I don’t think there is anything to argue. Isn’t that right George?”

“Ahah, I think I will say neutral in this discussion.” he said.

Battler stuck his finger out at Jessica. “Then how about love. Have you climbed the stairs to adulthood yet. Do have a sweetheart?” he said with a purposely vulgar laugh.

“Eh?” was all that Jessica said as her response. Battler didn’t miss this.

“Ohhhhhh, so you do! Well well well!”

“No! I mean… it’s not... “ Jessica tried to explain but was completely flustered. She turned to George trying to change the topic. “How about you George?”

“I’m too busy for that sort of thing. All nighters, being forced to drink with clients, working at my father’s company has been keeping me busy.”

Maria chirped up, “So grown up! Uu-uu!”

Jessica and Battler stood there and looked at each other. Maria’s words had made them realise the true winner. They then proceeded to comically pray and bow to George as a god of adulthood while Maria danced around them.
>> No. 20563 edit
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“Here take my hand,” Hideyoshi said while reaching out to his wife.

“...Thank you dear,” Eva took his hand and he helped her up the steps. Up ahead the other adults were being led by Genji through the winding forest trail.

“Genji,” Rudolf said, “Do you know how the old guy is feeling today?”

“Not well. He may not be able to visit tonight.”

Rudolf exchanged a glance of “As expected” to Kyrie who was walking slightly behind him. He gave a look to Rosa who nodded back.

The group traveled up to the garden and eventually into the mansion. The cousins stopped to mess with the roses after Maria made a fuss about something.

“Here you go, I brought some herbal tea from my trip to Bali,” Rosa said while holding them up to Natsuhi. “Apparently they help with stress and fatigue, or so I’ve been told.”

“Thank you…,” Natsuhi let Kumasawa take the tea from Rosa. At this time Krauss came down from the staircase and greeted the family.

“Supper will be ready shortly. We can talk in the parlor until then,” he said curtly.
>> No. 20564 edit
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The family gathered and talked shortly before moving into the dining room for supper. Rosa had to go get Maria who had been left in the garden. After dinner had finished Maria revealed a letter claiming she received it from Beatrice…

“Is this your scheme Krauss?” Eva scowled. The dining room was in an uproar with the letter announcing the witch taking back the interest Kinzo owed her and the usual.

“I would ask you the same thing! Genji, this seal…”

“Yes… it is the head’s,” Genji replied.

The mood had turned sour and with it the dessert lost its appeal to the adults. The servants and cousins were left in the dining room as the adults and Genji decided to try and talk to Kinzo themselves.

“Man,“ Battler said “And here I thought I was glad to be back.” He scooped up some the dessert and put it in his mouth. “Wait… I take it back. I think this alone might have made it worth it.” He gestured to Jessica trying to ease the mood.

Gohda who had looked disappointed he couldn’t show off quickly swooped in and started explaining to Battler everything he could about the dish.

Nanjo shifted from his seat and got up, “I think I will take my leave too. I will be in the guesthouse if anyone needs me.”

“Alright, we will come over in a while.” George said as Nanjo left the room passing by Battler who was being overpowered by Gohda’s rambling.
>> No. 20565 edit
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The assault on Kinzo’s study was a failure. The adults returned to the parlor afterwards and began discussing the inheritance. The cousins had returned to the guesthouse and everyone eventually went to sleep. However in the study Kinzo was still stirring, galvanized by the insolence of his children.

“Fools, the bunch of them. Squabbling over my fortune like the vultures they are. What a joke...” Kinzo looked over his study and eventually rested his eyes on the chessboard. The pieces had been rearranged since Nanjo was in the room. Only the queen on the black side and eighteen pieces on the white.

“Well, if they want to joke around that much I will show them how to really do it…”
>> No. 20566 edit
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The morning came with the clouds still blocking out the sun. As the storm dropped rain onto Rokkenjima it slowly became clear something was wrong.

“All of them?” Krauss asked standing near the top of the stairs.

“Yes,” Genji said “All of the servant keys seem to be missing. I placed them in the key box the night before. There is one other thing...”

“Yes? What is it?”

“Kanon and Shannon never reported in. I don’t suppose you have seen them. Kumasawa is currently looking but we haven’t located them.”

“No I haven’t… If they are responsible then send them to me at once. If you cannot find them try to have Gohda prepare breakfast as well as possible.”

Genji bowed before leaving, but bowed again to someone behind Krauss. As Genji left he saw Natsuhi come out of her room and he took this time to tell her about these developments. He had enough to worry about and now something like this had to happen...
>> No. 20567 edit
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The cousins had made their way to the mansion. There they saw Eva and Hideyoshi talking to Genji in the main hall. From their expressions you could tell something wasn’t quite right. Before the cousins could ask they quickly moved off down one of the halls. With curious minds the group followed them.

The destination was the boiler room. And there tucked in the corner was a door plastered with a sticky red circle. Kumasawa was also there taken aback at the seen.

“It was like this when Kumasawa found it,” Genji said “The keys for rooms also are missing.”

“Do what you must,” Eva said. She turned to see the cousins there and asked, “Did any of you see Dr. Nanjo this morning at the guesthouse?”

“No we didn’t… what is in there anyway?” Battler asked.

Genji answered before walking deeper into the boiler room, “It contains everything for the electricity for the mansion. One year the rain caused water damage and the master took extra precautions to make sure it never happened again.”

The group was told Rudolf, Kyrie, and Rosa are missing too. Genji came back with a cutting torch and mask. He said with no key this is the only way to get inside the room so with permission he would try to cut through. After telling everyone to take the proper precautions to guard their eyes he started.

Sparks began flying. The boiler room was a dark room filled with pipes, machines, and boxes. Because of the darkness and tight quarters the room was quickly filled with flashes of light and sound. After a while he managed to finish and with a pull the door opened.
>> No. 20568 edit
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Inside were two bodies to the side leaning against the wall. While the visibility was low it became clear it was Kanon and Shannon by their outfits. However as the light was flicked on it was revealed their faces were missing! As if someone ripped them off!

Shock, horror, gagging, tears. The group had to react to the situation in front of them.

“What the hell is going on?” Battler muttered.

“K-Kanon!” Jessica had fallen to her knees in shock at the sight and Hideyoshi was lending a shoulder to Eva as he too struggled not to be sick.

“Is that…” George pointed next to Kanon’s body. There was a pile of keys and behind the bodies was yet another door with the red circle. Genji went up and inspected the keys.

“It is all five of the servant keys… and this one. It’s one of the keys to this part of the boiler room. However... it is Key C for the circuit breaker box. I am going to have to cut this door open too.”

They covered up the bodies with a sheet and Genji once again started his work.
When this door opened, a familiar site was unveiled. In one corner were two bodies belonging to Rudolf and Kyrie. Battler staggered forward.

“This has to be some kind of joke…” As Battler got closer he could see their faces were gone just like Kanon and Shannon. The rooms were similar to the rest of the boiler room with boxes and shelves used mostly for storage. However this one had what looked like a small room that jutted from the wall.

George bent down and picked up another key found in the room. It had the label B just like the C key Genji found.

“The B key is for the door I just cut. In other words the room we are currently in.” Genji told them.

The door to the part that jutted out also had a red circle on it. With everyone grasping the situation Genji once again began cutting the door.

The door opened with sloppy squishing sounds as the bodies of Dr. Nanjo and Rosa fell out. At this point you didn’t even have to tell the group what their faces looked like. Battler looked inside and found the same situation they had found the last two times. Although this room had the circuit breaker the contents were two bodies and Key A; the key for the first door they cut down.

Not knowing what to do the bodies were covered and the main door was locked so the police could investigate. They returned back to Kumasawa and Maria who were told to stay in the main boiler room. Genji was tasked to make the phone call, and everyone else headed to the parlor.
>> No. 20569 edit
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>> No. 20570 edit
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[Discussion Open]

And that is the first part. What do you think?

It has been a while since I have played on the witch side but hopefully it all goes well.
>> No. 20571 edit
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Hoh...a new game? Surely I must post!

We'll keep it simple to start. I'll also be a bit more informal, as this is a looser game and a starting discussion.

I imagine there's the usual bit of no extra keys, no duplicates, and whatnot? Secondly, would the master keys open doors A, B, and C, or would you need to use the keys for those doors specifically?
>> No. 20572 edit
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I think you are already somewhat informal whenever you play.

In any case, the master keys are technically duplicates of each other... but as far as that part of the boiler room is concerned those are the only keys.

Genji should have confirmed it so I will give you that. The master keys do not work on the locks in the boiler room. There are only three keys to that section of the boiler room.
>> No. 20573 edit
I'm new to this, but excited to try.

There are a lot of ways to attack the first twilight with tricks we have already seen, such as adding keys after the room is broken into, culprits hiding within rooms and waiting for people to break in, or other passageways into the boiler room.

Also, without a reliable perspective, it's easy to dismiss anything we see.
>> No. 20574 edit
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You got me, the truth is that they are all actually in Hinamizawa. One too many drinks if you know what I mean.

But yes if you think one of those classics fits the bill tell me more.

Although I think the others would be shocked if I actually used a hidden passage in this situation.
>> No. 20575 edit
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Since I'm new here, let's try to make a good impression.
The narrator never stated that the doors were truly locked, maybe the door to room 1 was locked but it's never stated that the rest of the doors were locked.
>> No. 20576 edit

The easiest way to create this situation would be for Genji to simply add one of the keys to the boiler room to the collection of master keys. This trick is possible even if everyone is keeping a dutiful eye, because the human mind can't immediately differentiate between 5 and 6 objects.
>> No. 20577 edit
Welcome x2.

True, if the room just was not locked then it would be quite simple. The doors were all locked.

You make a good point with the pile of keys.

Although that said, it was the key to the circuit breaker. So planting that key wouldn't be very helpful explaining the rest of the room.
>> No. 20578 edit
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The labels on the keys were changed, making it look like key B is actually Key A, etc
>> No. 20579 edit
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You weren't the only one who was considering this.

The labels on the keys were never swapped. The keys are all the ones Genji said they are.
>> No. 20580 edit
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Not quite ready for a blue on this one yet, but was there any sign of any kind of weapon/tool/animal that could have done the damage to the faces?

Furthermore, any obvious signs of what might have caused their deaths aside from losing face? (The joke was there, it called out to me...)
>> No. 20581 edit
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They weren't able to find anything in the boiler room at least.

The face lift probably would look like a messy job. Almost like it was ground down by something.
>> No. 20582 edit
Repeat it in red: the closed room was not constructed using magic!
>> No. 20583 edit
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>> No. 20584 edit
Yeah, I thought so, dirty witch.
>> No. 20585 edit
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Does this game uses Knox's 4th Decalogue ?
>> No. 20586 edit
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Well how else would you be able to explain it with human means?

After all If I said "a drug nobody had ever heard of was used" it sounds pretty magical.
>> No. 20587 edit
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Just letting you know I'm also watching this. Not much to say yet, leaving some to new people etc.

...Though I do find it funny how Genji cut door C even though they supposedly had the key for it at that point.
>> No. 20588 edit
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Hmm. Three doors to prevent water damage, eh? That alone may not be enough.

There were grates in the floor, which would allow water to drain out or muderers/keys to drain IN!
>> No. 20589 edit
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Sharp eyes, let's say everyone was in shock and forgot to. It doesn't ruin anything either way.

There would be drains, but No keys passed through them. Of course they wouldn't be large enough for a human to fit through either. Unless you really wouldn't put it past Kinzo.
>> No. 20590 edit
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Someone could have put the key next to the corpses without anyone noticing, for example,
when battler got closer to see his parents face

>> No. 20591 edit
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Perhaps Battler could have put one, but the other keys pose an issue. Unless of course you want to suspect Battler, George, and Genji were all in on it and each placed the keys they found.
>> No. 20592 edit
File 150561670811.png - (102.93KB , 500x480 , mar_i4a.png )

Then repeat it in red: After the murder all the keys that were in the boiler room were never moved until Genji broke the door
>> No. 20593 edit
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I refuse. I won't explain why.
>> No. 20594 edit
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Let me throw in something basic.

Kinzo's extra precautions included giving the doors autolocks so nobody would accidentally leave them open.
>> No. 20595 edit
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That would have been interesting. There are no autolocks on the boiler room doors.
>> No. 20596 edit
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The doors could be unlocked without the keys found in the boiler room with some mechanism that Kinzo created one year ago
>> No. 20597 edit
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Repeat it in red: 'None of the three rooms can be locked without a key.'
>> No. 20598 edit
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Wouldn't put it past Kinzo right? Normally you would expect a typical deadbolt but I guess he was extra careful.

Each door can only be locked with the their respectful keys.

Probably will close discussion tomorrow so we can move on.
>> No. 20599 edit
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Genji mentions damage being done to the wiring. I argue that damage was also done to the circut breaker box (in room 3) and that at the time of the crime, it didn't actually hold the circut breakers the mansion was using - they were somewhere else, having been moved as a precaution of Kinzo's. It's also a fairly big mansion, so there would've been a lot of circut breakers there - meaning it was a fairly big box. Therefore:

The culprit threw Key C into room 1, locked room 2 with Key B (left key B in the room), and went into room 3 (left key A in the room), then hid in the circut breaker box (which would've been big enough to fit a person), and which was never actually established to have been locked to begin with. They either stayed there or there was a secret hole hidden in it that allowed them to escape (potentially another damage caused by the water damage?)

Last edited at 17/09/18(Mon)07:43:17
>> No. 20600 edit
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Even if you said it that each door can only be locked with the their respectful keys, that doesn't mean that the doors couldn't be unlocked without the keys.

That means that some device that was constructed to stop the flood in the room 1, 2 and 3 that can unlock the doors without needing a key

It's not a autolock if the only thing it can do is unlock the door

Last edited at 17/09/18(Mon)10:30:40
>> No. 20601 edit
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Hmm, everyone is a big fan of renovations I see... I think I will leave these two for later.

The next part will be posted in the upcoming days.

[End of Discussion]
>> No. 20602 edit
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Jessica, Maria, George, Battler, Hideyoshi, and Eva all gathered into the parlor. Genji had gone off to call the police and Kumasawa was tasked to getting Krauss and Natsuhi.

The parlor was chilled with the rain slowly pattering on the windows. Jessica and Battler slumped down onto the couch and Maria had gone over to watch some TV clearly not being able to grasp the situation. George looked at them, and then back to his parents who were trying to make sense of the situation.

“We can’t just sit around here like this.” Eva said. “When Genji gets back need to get him to take us to father.”

“I haven’t seen that new chef either. We should stop by the kitchen too…” Hideyoshi added.

George looked back to the others and noticed Battler was shaking. He reached his hand out and was about to say something when saw that he wasn’t crying, but was shaking with rage.

“I’m going to find them… The bastard who did this… I swear it…”

Eventually Kumasawa came back looking quite worried.

“I couldn’t find them anywhere, however I noticed Natsuhi’s door was locked.” She said. Eva had decided to hold onto the keys herself so Kumasawa was coming back to ask for assistance.

At this time Genji also returned and informed the group the phone lines are down. Before heading to the study they decided to have Hideyoshi, Jessica, Genji, and Maria go to find Gohda while Battler, Eva, Kumasawa, and George went to find Natsuhi and Krauss.
>> No. 20603 edit
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Battler’s group climbed up the stairs to the second floor and when reaching it Kumasawa let out a small gasp while looking towards Natsuhi room. The door seemed to be slightly ajar.

“I swear it was locked just a moment ago!” she said.

“Maybe you were just tired and mistook it.” George suggested trying to lighten the mood.

Battler walked over to the door, “Or maybe the culprit was hiding in the room…”

With that said he slowly pushed the door open cautiously as the rest of their group was behind him. Inside the room was a large blood splatter on the ground in the middle. There was a dresser and cabinet along the wall to the right. The door to a closet next to them. In the top left corner was a large bed that wasn’t made. Opposite the door was a window, and to the left was a door to a bathroom. George took a closer look at the door’s lock which seems to be a typical deadbolt and above it a normal chain lock.

George turned to the old servant. “Kumasawa, you said the door was locked right? You must have meant the door itself and not just the chain since you wanted a key.”

“Yes... that is right.”

Battler went over to check the blood and window while George went over to the bathroom door and opened it. Inside was the body of Natsuhi in a bathtub almost overflowing with water. The key to her room in the sink. The bathroom itself didn’t have much else to note.

“She must have been drowned,” George concluded taking a closer look at the corpse. “So that blood must be…”

“Krauss,” Battler finished. Eva was checking under the bed and in the closet while Kumasawa was leaning against the door frame. Battler checked the window looking out into the courtyard and saw it was locked.

“That, or he is the one responsible…” Eva said.

“Woah hold on. You think he did all this?” Battler asked incredulously.

“Well in any case we should head back to the other group,” George said quick to intervene.

They eventually decided that to be the best option and left to the ground floor once again.
>> No. 20604 edit
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The group returned to the first floor and headed in the direction of the kitchen. As they did they noticed… something smelled. They continued on their way to regroup with the others and turning the corner to the hall they saw them about to enter the boiler room. It was clear now this was where the smell was coming from. Unlike their group it looked like they were successful in finding their target.

“Oh this is just terrible!” Gohda yammered at the back of their group. “I can’t believe it. I was just making breakfast when this was happening. How could this happen!”

Most people were just letting him freak out. It was then Jessica spoke up, “...Where is mom and dad?”

With careful words George broke it to her. Jessica’s stifled tears filled the halls while she cried into her hands. After a while the group decided they should get to the bottom of the smell and reentered the boiler room.
>> No. 20605 edit
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Nothing looked particularly different, but soon enough they found the source; the incinerator. After letting it cool they opened the hatch and found a partially charred corpse. The clothing and surface layer were all burnt black but between the cracks plasma and still leaked from the body.

“Going by process of elimination… this must be grandfather or Krauss” Battler said as taking a better look.

“If you check the toes you might be able to tell,” Genji said while explaining Kinzo’s polydactyly.

George bent down to take a look as well, “Only five… So this is uncle Krauss.” He also went over to the door to the courtyard and checked to find it locked.

“So after killing them in Natsuhi’s room they were going to take the body down here before Kumasawa saw them. Then after she left they took the body elsewhere and waited for us to go into the room so they could come down here.” Battler concluded.

However Hideyoshi objected, “Wait a moment, that doesn’t make any sense. Part of our group never actually entered the kitchen. So they would have noticed if someone was carrying a body through the hall! Isn’t that right?” he looked to Genji and Jessica who agreed.

The kitchen door and the one to the boiler room is in the same stretch of hallway. Apparently Genji and Jessica stood in the hallway while they went to get Gohda.

“Wait… but then how…” Battler held his hand up to his chin thinking. At this time George found a key in the incinerator and while a bit singed still looked usable.

“That’s the other key to the study,” Genji explained.

The group decided it was best to go to the study. Both to check on Kinzo and for potential protection.
>> No. 20606 edit
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A solid click unlocked the door to Kinzo’s study and the group cautiously poured in. It soon became clear after calling out and then searching the area that Kinzo was nowhere to be found.

“So he is missing, the culprit, or dead.” Battler said.

“The master is a bit… eccentric.” Kumasawa said “It isn’t impossible that he is out on a stroll.”

“In this weather?” Battler asked while raising an eyebrow.

“Knowing him, I wouldn’t put it past father…” Eva muttered.

They decided to hold up here for now and were able to find Kinzo’s gun collection. Eva and Hideyoshi took two of the guns and loaded them up. Everyone was sitting around mostly in silence although Battler had gotten bored and started looking through some of the books on the shelf.

Knock Knock

Like a gunshot went off everyone suddenly reacted. Heads snapping to look at the door. Eva quick to raise her gun.

“Who is there!” she yelled. Nobody in the study said anything. They were all trying to strain their ears to catch whatever sound came next.

No response.

“Father? Is that you?” Eva asked once again. She motioned to Hideyoshi who grabbed his gun and he started walking closer to the door. Eva had the servants come for help and while following Hideyoshi they walked past the cousins who were sitting at the table.

Everyone’s eyes were fixed on the door, waiting if there was any movement. After still no response Hideyoshi prepared to yank the door open and everyone got into position. He gestured a countdown.

3… 2… 1…

Guns raised and trusted through the doorway into the hallway. Only to find it as barren as they had left it. Eva looked around the corner, no one. Not a sound or footstep heard in the hall. Just the steady patter of the rain like usual.
>> No. 20607 edit
File 150681383062.png - (397.56KB , 640x480 , ev10.png )
The tension was not undone however since the moment they closed the door and turned their backs on it Eva stopped, and then raised her gun.

“George. Come over here,” she said with a cold, fearful tone.

The cousins and George were confused. “What are you doing mom?” Following her line of sight the cousins quickly saw a letter on the table where they were sitting. Just like the one supposedly from the witch with Kinzo’s seal on it.

“When we walked by that letter wasn’t there. I don’t know if they are responsible or just helping but you need to come over here George.”

“Woah just wait a second aunt Eva,” Battler said with a unconvincing laugh “Come on do you really think any of us would do this?”

“I don’t know Battler, what exactly do we know about you? You have grown up so much I couldn’t even recognise you…”

“Wha-” Battler started. His face twisting into an emotion of betrayal.

“All I know is you Jessica and Maria can’t stay here. If you won’t leave then we will force you out. ”

George stood up and went in between them, “If they go so do I.”

“Don’t be silly George. Listen to your mother now.”

George didn’t move. Eva raised her gun further as if to make some sort of point. Hideyoshi put his hand on her shoulder and her face softened for a moment. The servants seemed to have no real issue being on the "better safe than sorry" path and didn’t intervene.

George was given a gun and left the study with Battler, Jessica, and Maria. The parlor was their destination.
>> No. 20608 edit
File 130837229998.png - (64.25KB , 347x480 , ozaki_akuwaraia1.png )
[Discussion Open]

Sorry about that wait. I imagine the next one shouldn't take as long.
>> No. 20609 edit
It's fine.
I guess the interesting thing about this one is how many people seem to have an alibi for it. Something to think about later.

Still if we ignore that part then the simple theory is:
Krauss was brought down before people were near the kitchen. In other words, before Kumasawa even witnessed the locked door, which was caused by the culprit returning to the crime scene for one reason or another.
After that they just left again.

Last edited at 17/10/01(Sun)12:38:42
>> No. 20610 edit
File 137918006716.png - (596.33KB , 642x768 , ozaki_32.png )
That is a fair point. On a side note I think I noticed something I should clarify.

The the door to the parlor, boiler room, and kitchen are all in the same hallway in that order. The group would have noticed someone pass the parlor when they were gathered there.

So you can see each of the doors by simply looking down the hall.
>> No. 20611 edit
File 135351726645.png - (96.67KB , 415x480 , avbb2.png )

The narrative itself gives us a solution to Natsuhi's room. Kumasawa could've been mistaken, lied, or the culprit could've been in the room when she showed up and left later right afterwards. There's no real issue there at the moment.

Somewhat a similar situation with the boiler room incident, since you have yet to deny the existence of a secret passage, such as the one I'd suggested in my last theory.
>> No. 20612 edit
File 137739341159.png - (392.84KB , 515x632 , ozaki_60.png )
I suppose having passages up in the air is a bit too much. Gives too much room to work with.

There are no secret passages in the entirety of the mansion.

Although I don't have much to say about Kumasawa.
>> No. 20613 edit
File 150699657198.png - (101.78KB , 500x480 , mar_w2n.png )
You can see in the map that the boiler room has 2 doors. One door leads to the hallway but what about the other door?
>> No. 20614 edit
File 130854339985.png - (65.08KB , 347x480 , ozaki_defa1.png )
The courtyard, just like in Umineko.
>> No. 20642 edit
File 150568696586.png - (102.41KB , 500x480 , mar_def4a.png )
Can you lock the door to the courtyard without a key ?
>> No. 20643 edit
To confirm, are master keys the only keys that can lock or unlock Krauss and Natsuhi's room? Furthermore, can they be locked from the inside without a key?
>> No. 20644 edit
File 130854339985.png - (65.08KB , 347x480 , ozaki_defa1.png )
Well the key to her room was found inside, and yes you can set the deadbolt from the inside.
>> No. 20645 edit
File 150568696586.png - (102.41KB , 500x480 , mar_def4a.png )
It might be possible to go down to the courtyard from Natsuhi's window using a rain gutter, that way the culprit wouldn't need to go into the hallway
>> No. 20646 edit
File 13083791693.png - (65.07KB , 347x480 , ozaki_defa2.png )
The good old rain gutter grab eh. Well I won't deny it, but that would have left the window unlocked right?
>> No. 20647 edit
File 150699657198.png - (101.78KB , 500x480 , mar_w2n.png )
The culprit killed Krauss and Natsuhi sometime before or during the discovery of the first twilight, he throwed Krauss' body out the window and using the rain gutter he left Natsuhi's room, after waiting the group leave the boiler room, Genji waited everyone leave the boiler room so that after the culprit put Krauss' body into the incinerador he could lock the door to the courtyard, the culprit went back to Natsuhi's room climbing the rain gutter, locket the window and left throught the door leaving it unlocked
>> No. 20648 edit
File 150718507756.jpg - (28.03KB , 275x345 , 275px-Conan_Edogawa_Profile.jpg )
The culprit placed the corpse in the boiler while everyone else was inspecting the corpses in the electrical rooms. As established in prior gameboards, it can take time for the smell to develop.
>> No. 20649 edit
File 135656702519.jpg - (19.23KB , 210x240 , char_34451.jpg )
I wonder what they did to get the mud off their boots so the group didn't notice anything in Natsuhi's room. Well I don't think it would be too hard to come up with something to deal with that so I will deny something at least. Nobody climbed back up to Natsuhi's room.

Kumasawa and Maria were in the main boiler area. Maria is one thing, but I suppose you would have to suspect Kumasawa too.

Going to close the discussion, but don't worry I can guarantee that the next part will be up tonight.

[End of Discussion]
>> No. 20716 edit
File 150726441312.png - (331.03KB , 640x480 , ev11.png )
The cousins made it to the first floor without issue. Once there Maria said she needed to use the bathroom so the group decided to use the one next to the parlor and main hall. Jessica also needed to go, so after Battler and Gorge checked to make sure no one was in the bathroom, they stood outside guarding the door.

“I can’t believe she kicked us out,” Battler said, breaking the silence. “The culprit could pop around the corner at any second and shoot us!”

“I'm not quite sure actually,” George said “They had access to the study but none of the guns were missing.”

“They could have brought their own,” Battler suggested

“And risk a shootout now that we have the guns?”

“Like you said, the guns were not taken. That means they are confident they can end this even if we have them.” After saying this, Battler knocked on the door and called out, “You two almost done in there? If you don’t answer I’m coming in!”

“Uu-uu, no peeking! Pervert Battler!”

“Yeah right,” he responded, “Maybe if you were another 10 years older!” Battler chuckled.

George looked at him joking until Battler noticed his gaze. “What is it?”

“You’re amazing, staying calm in this situation.” George continued, “Back on the boat you guys were praising me for being grown-up… But back then I…” George thought back to the scene in the boiler room. Although he had followed the group into each room and even picked up a key his hands had been shaking. The moment he saw Kanon and Shannon like that, those two dead bodies were enough to make him grimace and look away. All he could manage to do was stick with everyone else from that point on.

Battler looked at George before looking away and saying, “I said I would find the one responsible. I tried to take the lead and offer some solutions but… that’s all just facade. I’m scared shitless right now. But you know, it’s like, since I have already put on that mask of confidence, then the more scared I get the more I have to keep faking it.”

Battler put his hand on George's shoulder. “Besides, you chose to come with us right?” he said with a grin. They looked at each other for a moment before George exhaled and put on a small smile. “You wouldn’t last very long on your own, now would you?”

“Hey now!”

Battler threw some playful punches and they chuckled a bit. Some minutes later Jessica and Maria came out and they headed to the parlour.
>> No. 20717 edit
File 138999071050.png - (257.35KB , 640x480 , mhal_2cr.png )
As they walked to the parlour George was thinking about what Battler said about solving these series of events. Six died in the boiler room, and then Krauss and Natsuhi… six… George noticed out of the corner of his eye the portrait of Beatrice in the main hall and it suddenly clicked. After rushing over to check it he read it outloud and then explained to the others.

“So they plan to kill us all then?” Jessica asked in horror.

“Uu-uu, Maria has been saying that since the start!”

However, as they were discussing this a sudden, sharp ringing of a phone in the parlor cried out. With hesitation the group went to the parlor and George picked up the phone. “...Hello?”

There was no response on the other end besides the steady ticking of the clock in Kinzo’s study. The cousins decided to head back to check on the others.
>> No. 20718 edit
File 144035792747.png - (277.19KB , 640x480 , mbat_1b.png )
What they saw when they got there was unsettling. As if to welcome them, one of the keys to the study was neatly laying centered in front of the door. They had forgot to consider it, but without a study key they had no way to enter without having the people inside to open the door for them.

“Aunt Eva? Are you guys there?” Battler called out.

Carefully they entered and checked the area. The phone was found upright on the desk, but otherwise nothing seemed out of place. Genji had brought some bolt cutters to the study in case they needed them, which were now laying on the table top. As the group explored more they found the door to the bathroom covered in red. When they tried to open the door it only opened a bit before they noticed the chain was set. They cut the chain and entered.

Inside the bathroom the ground was wet and thin splatters of blood were everywhere. The bathroom itself was more like a private hot tub room with a back area through a doorway. It was hard to see in the dark so George flipped on the light switch. Suddenly static and flickering shook the room while something violently seemed to thrash in the back.

“Did it short circuit or something?” Battler wondered out loud. They moved into the back found the one thing they had been worrying about.

In the back Genji, Kumasawa, and Gohda were tied together with duct tape on their mouths. Their arms and legs were bound and part of their bodies submerged in a separate tub. Electrical wires ripped from appliances were plunged in the water and even wrapped directly to them. Looking around the room the mirror was also shattered and stained with blood. The lights above shattered with whatever remained of the filaments.

“D-did… what did I…” George couldn’t speak. The implication was too much. However perhaps the gruesome additions to the scene made him reconsider. For Genji had a stake sticking out of his eye, Kumasawa the chest, and Gohda the stomach.

Battler noticed in the room was the key to the library portion of the study. The bathroom room didn’t have any areas where someone could hide and the windows were locked. His mind raced. He took the key and quickly headed to the library. Perhaps he just forgot about the others in shock, or maybe he was trying to be considerate and planned to hide whatever he found.
>> No. 20719 edit
File 138999145765.png - (259.35KB , 640x480 , portrait2.png )
He unlocked the library and found inside to be drenched. As if a fire alarm went off and had showered down splattering all the bookshelves and hardcovers. He checked the aisles to see if anyone was hiding and he saw it. Eva and Hideyoshi were in a very similar position as the servants but with buckets of water. Hideyoshi’s leg had stake sticking out of it, as well as Eva’s knee. The key to the bathroom portion was next to them.

George had made it into the room and came up beside Battler. He had already expected it but tears came washing down and he kneeled down next to the bodies and cried.

A few moments passed and Battler left the room angry. Scratching his head and screamed. Maria and Jessica stood looking at him. They were lost. What were they to do at this point?

Battler stopped, when he noticed something flutter out of the corner of his eye. He raised the gun back to the main part of the study. “Is someone there!?” he yelled. “Come out you bastard!!!” Battler fired off a shot, and Jessica screamed. Maria giggled.

George came out after the gunshot, “Battler what is it!?” He too raised his gun and Battler frantically looked around. Suddenly a sound. Battler twisted around and shot reflexively. The clock suddenly started started chiming. Or perhaps not suddenly, for it had just turned midnight. The windows began to shake.

“Uu-uu, she is here!” Maria cried out with joy.

George pointed his gun to the window. Pressing up against it was thousands of golden butterflies. Like every raindrop had transformed and was splatting onto the window.

"As if, something like that, exists!!!" Battler fired shot after shot at the miniature portrait of Beatrice to no effect.

With one final roar the window burst open, and it all came to an end…
>> No. 20720 edit
File 130854339985.png - (65.08KB , 347x480 , ozaki_defa1.png )
No discussion for this part since we are at the end. However I will leave it here for now so you can read over it before the debate.

I will edit this post later once I open the final debate. Will also post the winning conditions then.


These are the winning conditions.

Human Side: Only if you manage to explain every mystery with human means can you win. No magic must be left. If this happens the witch side must then confirm the truth.

Witch Side: If they can stump the humans they win. Additionally they must respond to each witch denying theory in order for this to be valid. The witch’s truth becomes reality upon their victory.

In the event neither side wins then it will considered a stalemate and another game must be made with the same core solution if the human side wishes to know the truth.

I will be watching to see if anyone starts posting random blues to give them more time, so don`t do that. Tentatively I would say this should be no longer than a week time limit but I will gauge while we are playing.
>> No. 20788 edit
File 150747917090.png - (53.31KB , 640x480 , blade4r.png )
Anyway I will make the opening move.

First Twilight

No such device existed.

As stated there are no hidden passages and a person could not fit in the circuit breaker box.

Second Twilight

Maria was in view of the incinerator during this time and would have told the group if that had happened.
>> No. 20789 edit
File 143903025595.jpg - (260.34KB , 600x600 , 44349954_p23_master1200.jpg )
Here i goooo

The culprits are a team consisting of Kyrie, Rudolf and Battler.

First Set of Murders
Kyrie and Rudolf faked their deaths on the first twilight. The key trick from there becomes rather simple:

First, they locked the door connecting Room 1 with the boiler room with Key A.
They then threw it in room 3.
They then locked room 3 with Key C.
They threw Key C into Room 1.
They then locked the door between Room 1 and 2 with Key B and left it in the room.

This way, there's no need for anyone to have planted any of the keys and no need for a secret passage. Upon the body discovery, Battler simply lied about them being dead.

Second Set of Murders
At some later point, Kyrie and Rudolf left the boiler room thanks to the fact that Genji had left them a trail of holes they could just go through.

Kumasawa was telling the truth. The door was locked, because Natsuhi and Krauss were in the process of being murdered. Two people involved explains another small potential issue if there had only been one person: if Krauss had been killed first, Natsuhi should've left the tub. Conversely, if Natsuhi had been killed first, how did they just go through Krauss? The issue is simple if it's two people working at the same time - one person took each.

Krauss' body was then thrown outside the window. The window was then closed and locked, and the culprits simply left the room. They then exited the mansion and brought Krauss' body from the outside to the boiler room, from its other entrance, explaining how they weren't seen by anyone. It also explains the issue regarding muddy shoes - of course none of the suspects had any mud on their shoes. None of the alleged suspects ever had to even step out.

The Knock and Letter
The knock the group had heard was simple - it was either Kyrie or Rudolf. While everyone was distracted, Battler had taken out a letter his parents had left for him in one of the books he'd examined and left it on the desk. This was done just in case the group had decided to do a body check for any potential weapons. Had Battler been searched and the letter found - the jig would've been up. This way, there are no issues.

Third Set of Murders
Firstly - I argue the guns Eva and Hideyoshi had were loaded with blanks. It's been established that the culprit would've had access to the study. With Rudolf and Kyrie's training in guns, they would've been able to either tamper with the bullets or, if the entire thing had been premeditated, brought blanks along to the island with them.

This point is important for establishing both why the culprit never bothered to take any of the guns and how the two got into the study.

They simply knocked. Their past attempt had already established that the survivors would go for opening the door. They did the same here. Only, when they opened them - the culprits were there. Because Eva and Hideyoshi's bullets were blanks, they were left defeneless and the culprits used this to their advantage, overpowering them. Ghoda was a coward, Kumasawa feeble and old, and Genji clearly didn't give a shit. So, they wouldn't have been a problem.

The creation of the locked rooms also isn't terribly difficult.

Eva and Hideyoshi are first put in the library, and the key to the bathroom is left next to them. The bathroom itself was never actually locked by a key so this detail makes it easy for us.
The door was then locked from the outside with the library key.
One of the culprits entered the bathroom, smashed the lights and prepared the wiring setup. They also left the libary key and set the chain from the inside.
They then hid in the space between the entrance to the room and the back room.
It's already been established that the path to there was dark to begin with. It wouldn't have taken much. They would've been focused on getting to the back room after their attention was drawn to the back room.
As they entered the back room, the hidden person simply escaped. This becomes extremely possible if we remember that Battler in this scenario is an accomplice, George's attention is focused on the bodies and the possibility he'd killed them, Jessica is traumatized by the loss of her parents and Maria doesn't care (meaning even if she'd noticed someone shuffling in the dark, she would've chalked it up to Beatrice).

This should cover everything, no?
>> No. 20790 edit
File 137739567671.png - (176.38KB , 284x401 , ozaki_95b.png )
When you asked if one blue that covers all twilights was alright I think that implies something more like `They all faked their deaths`.

I guess I can work with it, tackling it bit by bit. Just ignore all the blue stakes stabbing into me for now.

For the murders in the study, Nobody was hiding in the study bathroom. The room is fairly flat in structure and barren in decoration so any shape would have stood out.
>> No. 20791 edit
File 148902005188.png - (104.68KB , 415x480 , bu3_waraia1s.png )
Chain set from the outside?
>> No. 20792 edit
File 135900015540.jpg - (652.12KB , 1004x1277 , 281060.jpg )
Well someone looks happy.

No chain locks were set from the outside of the room during this game.

Also regarding the second twilight. Krauss` body was not thrown out of the window into the courtyard.
>> No. 20793 edit
File 148943033081.png - (104.39KB , 415x480 , bu3_majimea3s.png )
I'd like a confirmation of all the ways someone could exit the bathroom after the chain's been set, if that's okay. Just to eliminate stuff like it's possible to leave the room through the door even after the chain's been set or something like that.

Also - Krauss isn't really an issue. His body could've been carried out of the room and thrown out some other window. Or they just took it alongside him when they snuck out of the mansion and got to the boiler room from the outside.
>> No. 20794 edit
File 15073917736.png - (631.35KB , 1460x1077 , 883571_1321765774899_full.png )

Sure, I'll bite.

Everybody faked their deaths.
>> No. 20795 edit
File 13083791693.png - (65.07KB , 347x480 , ozaki_defa2.png )
Sure. When a chain lock is set a human would not be able to pass through the gap. Of course breaking the chain or door would allow it but the group would have noticed that.

As for Krauss, His body was never thrown out a window. The only window or door to the courtyard people passed through during the game was the backdoor to the boiler room.
>> No. 20796 edit
File 13569250582.jpg - (21.82KB , 223x350 , 99782.jpg )
A number of the bodies were checked fairly well. Could you explain how each death could have been faked?
>> No. 20797 edit
File 148896931990.png - (104.79KB , 415x480 , bu3_futekia4.png )
Does that mean that the only way used to exit or enter the mansion after the murders started would've been through that door? Because if not, that's still no issue for me - they could've just taken him through a door that led outside, but not to the courtyard section.

Last edited at 17/10/08(Sun)16:09:38
>> No. 20798 edit
File 139711119821.png - (781.96KB , 1366x768 , ozaki_2.png )
Not sure if this is the issue, but the courtyard is within the walls of the mansion on every side.

So no, that red only applies to the enclosed courtyard. Any other door or window is exempt.
>> No. 20799 edit
File 143865166763.jpg - (8.11KB , 236x177 , 1b6e35f9f767d3daecf996ee2556824f.jpg )

Electrical rooms: fake corpses or stand-in corpses. Faces were ground off. Maybe someone owns a morgue, I dunno.

Natsuhi was barely examined and folks left quickly. She 'drowned' leaving very little identifiable marks. Just needs to get a quick gulp of air every once in a while.

Burned corpse: see fake corpse/corpse doubles theory above. I actually have backup theories on that, but we'll save them for when this gets shot down.

Servants in the bathroom: makeup and special effects with the flickering lighting.
They thrashed around when the lightswitch was flipped, and there are cords leading into the tub and wrapped around them, but because Battler ran out so fast there wasn't time to examine them well enough to notice that it was makeup and that none of the cords actually were electrified.

Eva and Hideyoshi: There's no mention of cords, so the only things apparently wrong with them are that they are wet, have feet stuck in buckets of water, and have stakes stuck in their thigh or knee. Even if they aren't faking, those are hardly fatal wounds.
To avoid pain they could be makeup, but there's not even technically a reason it has to be.

As a sidenote, all hail the Drowned God. That which is dead may never die. (In other words, holy CRAP there's a lot of electricity and water theme in this.)
>> No. 20800 edit
File 135343152050.png - (96.60KB , 415x480 , avbb1.png )
Oh, alright, that simplifies things.

Then the corpse in the furnace wasn't Krauss'.

The culprits used one of the other bodies (or maybe even Kinzo's and cut out one of the toes after it was nice and crunchy). The reason for this was simple - after killing Krauss they wanted to throw suspicion on someone else. After toasting a random body they then hid Krauss'. Krauss' disappearance would've caused them to assume he could be the culprit. If they didn't check the furance, the assumption would've gone on just fine. If they did check it, they would've assumed it was Krauss', still leaving them to suspect Kinzo, at the very least. (It would've also created the illusion of an impossible body teleportation.)
>> No. 20801 edit
File 137756392996.png - (411.04KB , 445x521 , ozaki_44.png )
Well at the very least no fake corpses were used.

As for the others I will just give you that Natsuhi`s death was not faked. So the theory that everyone faked their deaths is denied.

Well I won`t challenge the reasoning, but sadly I will have to confirm That was indeed Krauss` body.
>> No. 20802 edit
File 150741663054.jpg - (36.21KB , 552x582 , 694fffa67175565c70b745c7b4722400--silver-bullet-bu.jpg )

Wow, not the ones I was figuring you'd go for.

Aaaalrighty, here goes. Actual theory, take one.

Culprit is Genji, accomplice is Battler.

In the electrical rooms Genji found the first key, Battler staggered into the second room and planted the second key, and he's the only one confirmed to have looked into the third room and found the third key.

Genji left "to make the phone call," but in actuality to murder Krauss and Natsuhi.
They opened the door for him. He locked it,
killed them both, tossed Krauss out the window, locked the window, unlocked the door after Kumasawa left, escaped down to the boiler room, yanked Krauss' body from the courtyard to throw into the boiler, then rejoined the group in the parlor, saying that the phone lines were down.
Ninja Genji.

In the study, it's not stated that the knock clearly came from the door. Either Genji or Battler could have made that sound. Then Battler placed the note. Afterwards, Genji killed the four remaining people in the study, made the call, locked himself in the bathroom with the chain lock, and faked his own death as described in the previous theory. Battler ran quickly into the library section so that no one else could inspect the corpses closely.

Last edited at 17/10/08(Sun)17:47:48
>> No. 20803 edit
File 130854339985.png - (65.08KB , 347x480 , ozaki_defa1.png )
I think you forgot my recent red about the windows.
>> No. 20804 edit
File 150738920640.jpg - (19.83KB , 400x400 , bb787a1044b60cf9644fd9c35c1f4995_400x400.jpg )

Why yes, yes I did.

Oooh! New, better idea!

Same theory, however Krauss was already dead and stuck in one of the mentioned nooks and crannies of the boiler room way back when the first murders were discovered.
>> No. 20805 edit
File 148890858970.png - (104.95KB , 415x480 , bu3_nayamua3.png )
They could've carried Krauss' body outside the mansion after killing him and then threw his body into the courtyard across the wall. Unless the courtyard has a roof over it or something, it should've been possible as long as they had a ladder/rope/whatever. This method also doesn't require entering the courtyard through any doors or windows, so no contradiction there either.

From that point, they simply carried him into the boiler room as suggested earlier.
>> No. 20806 edit
File 137748596988.png - (1.12MB , 1366x768 , ozaki_29.png )
I think you overestimate Genji`s abilities. Eva and Hideyoshi started talking to him right after he came downstairs. In other words Genji would not have had time to do that.

I see, so they hauled his body over the mansion roof and threw them into the courtyard from there. Reminds me of one of Kinjo`s old games.

No person or dead body ever passed through the top opening of the courtyard during this game.
>> No. 20807 edit
File 150740217774.jpg - (210.59KB , 480x453 , 4664e886a49257bea8cf1154ef83f43f.jpg )

To clarify, Genji killed Krauss that night and took him down to the boiler room with the others. He stashed Krauss' body there, and it remained hidden when everyone "discovered" the electrical room corpses. When he was supposed to be checking the phones, he was killing Natsuhi, escaping after Kumasawa left, retriving Krauss' body from where it had been stashed, and stuffing it in the boiler.

>> No. 20808 edit
File 131916917453.jpg - (17.22KB , 134x192 , 268527.jpg )
My bad, I understand now. However if that were the case, I must ask, how would he slip past the red here >>20610 ?
>> No. 20809 edit
File 150734552341.jpg - (8.52KB , 299x169 , images.jpg )

As Genji would not have been carrying anything suspicious, there would have been no reason to suspect him even if they did notice him.


They were distracted and huddling around Kumasawa.


A second stairway leading down from Natsuhi's room, leading to the hall in such a way as he'd be passing the kitchen, then the boiler room, then the parlor, so he would NOT have passed the parlor.
>> No. 20810 edit
File 140989265188.png - (59.66KB , 640x480 , blade1r.png )
There is no second staircase.

They were never distracted enough to miss someone passing. They would have said something if Genji had.

After all they were waiting for him.
>> No. 20811 edit
File 150761670222.jpg - (64.87KB , 453x604 , CIYqUJyVEAAz_sd.jpg )

Time for the most anticipated movie of the year:


Ninja Genji killed Natsuhi and unlocked the door to make it seem like the culprit had escaped that way. However, in actuality he exited the window and went down into the boiler room. Then his accomplice, Battler,
was the one to check the window in Natsuhi's room. He locked it.

>> No. 20812 edit
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There is a red here about using the courtyard windows.

>> No. 20813 edit
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Gohda was an accomplice. The body was thrown out of the window, and then moved from the side of the hallway that would've required moving past the kitchen door. Gohda (or one of the culprits) was the one to move the body to the boiler room. This way, it would've never been seen by anyone in the parlor.

If you try to deny it with Gohda not being involved - fair enough then: Gohda was too distracted to notice the body was being moved from the direction of the hallway that would've required moving next to the kitchen.

And if you don't like those - well, you never denied Rune's blue of the body having being moved sometime before Kumasawa ever witnessed the door. Hell, he could've simply been killed and left in the incinerator sometime after he and Genji spoke, but before any of the survivors ever got to the boiler room to discover the first twilight, since the narration is unclear how apart the two events were. And hell, even if they were close - we don't know how long Genji and Eva were having their conversation. While Genji would not have had time to move around the body, someone else might've.

Last edited at 17/10/10(Tue)13:01:04
>> No. 20814 edit
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Quite a lot of countermeasures there. Let's see what I can do.

We already established the body never went through a window so let's just say the body never passed by the kitchen in the hall.

As for the time between two scenes Eva and Hideyoshi started talking to Genji right as he came down the stairs. Genji going down the stairs was the same instance for both scenes. I don't want to start giving minutes or numbers to make it any more complicated, so it was almost immediately.
>> No. 20815 edit
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No issue if that scene with Genji and Krauss talking never actually happened. If I assume, say, George is the detective, it's really only Genji's word against the world's.
>> No. 20816 edit
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Indeed... I will relinquish this mystery.

I did say I was playing as a witch after all. You can consider this a point for the human side. You don't need to debate this mystery any further to win, only if you want more details or are just curious (will still have to use blue though). All will be revealed at the end if you win either way.

Feel free to choose the next topic.
>> No. 20817 edit
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Well, might as well keep on going with the Genji train.

Genji created the library trick as mentioned before - put the key there, locked door from the outside. He then went to the bathroom, setting the chain from the inside.
He then placed Kumasawa and Gohda's bodies in the tub, shut off the lights, threw the cables into the tub. He then stuck a stake in his eye - this didn't kill him. Then, he went into the tub, first covered his mouth in duct tape, then bound his legs, then tied himself to the others, and finally tied his hands.

>> No. 20820 edit
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Genji is a skilled fellow I see.

None of the people found in the study bathroom set the chain lock.
>> No. 20821 edit
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The person who set the chain lock left the room through the window, which was then closed by one of the three people found.

Best to keep it general.
>> No. 20822 edit
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Maybe, maybe not.

The window was never locked by the three found in the room.
>> No. 20823 edit
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the window was never locked to begin with
>> No. 20824 edit
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Looks like I have to give this one away too. Another point to the humans.

I'm running low now. So let's tackle the big one.

The door to the electrical rooms were never opened again after they were locked following the discovery of the first twilight. Thus even if Kyrie and Rudolf faked their deaths they would have been trapped there.
>> No. 20825 edit
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They never had to be opened again. After all, as I said - Genji had left a trail of holes behind!
>> No. 20826 edit
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Man those must have been some large holes.

The holes were not large enough for a person to fit through.
>> No. 20827 edit
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Buuuut if there had been small holes in the doors BEFORE the bodies were ever found... holes through which someone could've thrown keys in... holes whose existence would've been covered up by Genji using the blowtorch on the doors...

Then I could argue that Battler locked room 3 with C key, locked room 2 with B key, threw B key through a small hole in the door, put C key in room 1 and then simply locked the last door from the outside with A key - which he ended up planting later...

Then I guess no fake bodies are necessary.
>> No. 20833 edit
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Room 1, Room 2 and Room 3 could be unlocked with Key A and Key B or even Key C
This would explain how Room 3 is locked even though there's no key for Room 3

Last edited at 17/10/12(Thu)16:14:18
>> No. 20840 edit
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Well that is one what to think about it, The group would have noticed if Battler had pretended to find the key. After all it was a pretty small room.

Not quite sure what you mean. The key to each room was part of the set up and the ones you described.
>> No. 20841 edit
File 150734365024.png - (12.75KB , 500x480 , mar_o12.png )

Sorry, I'll rephrase that:
One key could lock and unlock all the rooms.
For example: Key A not only locks room 1 but also rooms 2 and 3.
Key B not only locks room 2 but also rooms 1 and 3
And Key C can unlock all the rooms

>> No. 20843 edit
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Ah I see, in that case I think this red denies that. >>20598
>> No. 20845 edit
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Shannon and Kanon are not dead. George looked away from Shannon and Kanon corpses, as said in the narration, that way they could have pretended to be dead
>> No. 20846 edit
You say that the rooms were locked after the first twilight. But that's not specific enough.

The locking could very well have happened after someone faking their death had already escaped.
>> No. 20847 edit
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I was going to point Vianfour to the red I made but it looks like Dwam is challenging its validity.

The door was locked immediately after the group left the room. As narrated at the end of the first section. The bodies were covered just beforehand too, and Kumasawa and Maria were in the main area so it would have been hard to escape.
>> No. 20848 edit
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Genji threw the keys in just as he cut in the holes. Nobody would've been looking due to the sparks.
>> No. 20849 edit
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But they were looking at the door beforehand.

Someone in the group would have spoke up if there was a hole in the door large enough to pass a key through. Not like the keys were right next to the doors anyway.
>> No. 20850 edit
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My bad, Genji did not throw the keys in as he cut the doors.

Nice idea though.
>> No. 20852 edit
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The keys discovered no longer fit the locks on the three doors. The locks have been changed, and three different keys are now the 'three keys to that section of the boiler room.'
>> No. 20853 edit
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The discovered keys are the keys to that section of the boiler room.

That one was a stretch.
>> No. 20855 edit
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Hang on a sec, something doesn't make sense here.

You've established the following:
- The holes Genji cut in were not big enough to fit a person through.
- The only keys to the doors - the only way to lock them - is with the keys. It would stand to reason then, that the only way to UNLOCK them would be with the keys as well.
- We can assume, for the time being, that those keys were in the rooms (it doesn't actually matter though; the only important thing is that the group believed the keys were missing).

My question is this:

How did, by cutting the doors, Genji ever unlock the doors/ how did the group that found the bodies enter the rooms?

Well, the logical conclusion would be that Genji either:
- Cut out the lock. (Impossible, given that they'd promptly locked the doors upon leaving.)
- There was a way to unlock the door from inside of the room without the usage of the keys. Genji cut a hole to fit his arm through and just moved a latch or something. (But that would also be impossible. If such a latch/chain/bolt existed, then reasonably, you'd have to be able to lock the doors with it too, given that only the keys are allowed to lock them.)

Sooo... how did the group ever enter get through these doors, exactly? Before you denied it, I was just under the impression the holes were big enough to fit a person through and they just stepped in. Afterwards, I just figured the locks had been cut off or something. When that was denied by stating the doors were locked after they left, I was going to suggest Genji had used the keys he secretly had on him to unlock the doors from the inside before throwing them in. That, however, was denied too.

Soooooooooo what gives?
>> No. 20856 edit
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You are right. I was careless and seemed to have made a logic error. I caught myself on this during the first discussion but didn't realize the narrative was wrong and made new reds based on it. You can consider this closed room won.

To clarify for the sake of the rest of the mystery, assume they sealed the door somehow when leaving rather than locking it. Maybe welding it shut. The keys can unlock and lock the door, but like you said the locks would not be functional anymore.

>> No. 20857 edit
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Let's just try the easiest solution.

I stand by my previous theory of either Kyrie, Rudolf or both faking their deaths and constructing the locked rooms. They, however, never left it.

Another human killed the people in the study.

>> No. 20859 edit
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If these crimes were committed by humans then There is no more than 1 culprit; a person who kills. There may or may not be an accomplice.
>> No. 20861 edit
Doesn't change a thing for me, since if one person killed the others and Rudolf and Kyrie (or just one of them) only helped with the construction of the locked room, and never left the rooms since, there's no contradiction with the red.
>> No. 20863 edit
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Right, but you were using your previous theory. So if Rudolf or Kyrie only helped to make the closed room then one person must have done everything else.

They dealt with Natsuhi and Krauss, placed the letter, killed everyone in the study. If not Rudolf or Kyrie then...?
>> No. 20864 edit
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I guess Jessica could've very well done it while she was in the bathroom. Gotten Maria to cover for her.
>> No. 20865 edit
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It is good you noticed that, but let me add some red elsewhere.

Natsuhi's door really was locked when Kumasawa found it.
Nobody living was inside the room at the time.
Natsuhi's key was also inside at the time.

Jessica naturally was in the parlor so they wouldn't have been able to do everything if Rudolf or Kyrie were accomplices.
>> No. 20869 edit
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Shit, iunno. Genji another accomplice - locked and unlocked the door with the master key?
>> No. 20871 edit
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I think we are both running out of steam. I will just go ahead and confirm it. Genji was the only accomplice.
>> No. 20876 edit
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I mean, unless Genji was telling the truth about the labels on the keys, but lied about what they unlock, I'm kind of at a dead end here, honestly...
>> No. 20877 edit

The lock was non-functional. Meaning it could be 'locked' but the door could be opened. This fact wasn't discovered because they just pushed the door open.

Last edited at 17/10/18(Wed)10:01:53
>> No. 20878 edit
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The door must be closed to be locked. I would assume the same for the chain lock since you normally have to close it first and set it.
>> No. 20879 edit
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I think you misconstrued my blue. I mean that the door could be shut, the lock mechanism could be turned and 'locked' but the door could then be opened. Possibly a jammed lock, cut lock, or otherwise broken locking mechanism.
>> No. 20931 edit
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Well I think you know the answer in that case.

The lock was functioning properly. When locked via deadbolt the door can't be opened.
>> No. 20938 edit
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When Kumasawa found the door to be locked,
she opened it herself. This was done either by picking it, or by using an additional master key that Genji never mentioned. Upon discovery of the crime scene, she realized that she would become the most suspicious,
so she left and lied about what happened to make it seem like someone else had escaped while she had been getting the group.

>> No. 20951 edit
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There are no additional master keys. No locks were picked during this game.
>> No. 20970 edit
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I think I am a little late, but please allow me to challenge your mystery as well.

So... the red truth is making it hard to see how Natsuhi was murdered. But I still suspect Kumasawa!

Your red about Kumasawa is not useful, because Kumasawa went to Natsuhi's room more than one time. That means in another time she visited her room, Natsuhi was inside, allowed Kumasawa to come, and was killed!
>> No. 20971 edit
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Very well.

Kumasawa did not enter Natsuhi's room this entire game until the group went to investigate.
>> No. 20972 edit
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Then... perhaps Natsuhi killer did not require being in the same room to murder her. Otherwise! If we go by the strict definition of killing, Natsuhi commited suicide.
>> No. 20973 edit
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Naturally, Natsuhi was killed.

Your other blue doesn't deny magic in any way. How or who could have done that?
>> No. 20974 edit
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Let's say she was killed using a poisonous gas. It would even explain why Genji had to come later to unlock the room so the gas would vent.
>> No. 20975 edit
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Just because I'm playing as a witch doesn't mean the human side can.

They would have found evidence of it if poison gas was used.
>> No. 20976 edit
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First Twilight
Genji actually had all 3 keys on him before the door locks were even cut. The keys in the rooms with the labels were not actually the keys to the rooms.

There is no contradiction with the red, because:
The labels were never SWITCHED, they were TAKEN OFF the keys.
The keys really were as Genji said: Key C unlocked what it did, Key B unlocked what it did, Key A unlocked what it did -- but the keys they FOUND weren't A, B or C, and he never claimed they were - the exception being maybe Key C, but that one he could've planted on himself, since he was the one who'd picked it up. Or it could've just been left in the room, since it wouldn't have been necessary to plant it or carry it out. So thinking about it - Key C could've really been Key C and it could've actually just been in the room since the beginning, but A and B? Not a chance.

This way you can also claim the keys were in the room when the doors were broken down - because they were on Genji - and Genji WAS in the room.

And since the fake keys don't unlock shit - it also doesn't break the read about key A, B, C being the only keys able to open their respective doors!

As for the culprit - it was Rosa.

The body believed to belong to Rosa was Natsuhi's.
The person found in the tub was Rosa, who'd faked her death.

Explains the locked room just fine.

The murders in the study become simple after that.

Last edited at 17/10/24(Tue)01:16:55
>> No. 20988 edit
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>> No. 20989 edit
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The keys found really were keys A, B, and C.
>> No. 20990 edit
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Fuck it, I'm gonna have to shotgun this one.

The keys were slid in under the doors.

The culprit was hiding in one of the rooms and made their escape afterwards.

While there are no secret passages, the culprit could've been one of the people trapped in the room, pretending to be dead, and tampered with the pipes, causing them to rupture, which ultimately, despite Kinzo's measures, created a hole through one of the walls they were going through, which the culprit then used to escape. It is would not be 'secret', since anyone who'd gone down to the basement afterwards would've seen it.

The six victims of the first Twilight were tricked into participating a murder mystery game. The rooms were constructed with my Rudolf/Kyrie explanation. However, they ended up dying due to the culprit poisoning them. They weren't accomplices, because they weren't aware they were directly assisting the culprit's plans.

>> No. 20994 edit
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A key cannot be slid under any boiler room door.

Well you know the room was sealed and all that other jazz. Kind of hard to escape the rooms at the moment.

An escape hole was never made.

Nobody of the first twilight was poisoned to death.

>> No. 20995 edit
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The culprit could've been hiding and escaped while everyone was discovering the bodies.




Last edited at 17/10/24(Tue)15:34:59
>> No. 20998 edit
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That would make Kumasawa an accomplice right?

There are no passkeys used in this game. The keys are metal keys you use on locks.
>> No. 20999 edit
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There were pipes going through all three rooms. After locking all three rooms, from outside the room, the culprit, controlling the water flow and by strategically making holes in each of the rooms' section of the pipe beforehand, sent the keys down and had them delivered in each of the rooms.
>> No. 21000 edit
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They would have noticed water that splashed out of said holes. Would have to be fairly precise.
>> No. 21001 edit
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The water could've just ended up evaporating overnight or dealt with by Kinzo's anti-flood system, whatever it was. Maybe the drainage. Hence, there was no water to be found. Hence, they wouldn't have noticed anything.

Last edited at 17/10/24(Tue)16:17:05
>> No. 21002 edit
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None of the keys were delivered into the room using water.
>> No. 21003 edit
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None of the keys were in any of the rooms from the start.

Key C was planted by Genji as he was pretending to pick it up.
Key B was planted by the culprit.
While everyone was focused on Rudolf and Kyrie's bodies, Genji unlocked Room 3 with Key C and dropped Key A into it, then quickly locked it.

>> No. 21006 edit
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Sorry but, Each key was already in its found room when its door was opened.
>> No. 21009 edit
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The bodies of the first twilight, in addition to being covered with sheets, had been carried outside of the crime scene - before the doors were all sealed!
>> No. 21010 edit
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The bodies were not carried out after. The group left them where they were found.
>> No. 21012 edit
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The keys weren't delivered by water, but they were still delivered by pipes. Perhaps electrical conduits or air vents or the like. If you have to be mean, odds are we're close.

The culprit was in the bathroom when Kumasawa checked Natsuhi's room. As such, they don't count as being in 'the room' as the bathroom can be considered a separate room. They then hid in the closet when everyone was investigating the room. It only mentioned that they looked under the bed. Hence why the door was unlocked, to speed up the search.

The culprit is Kinzo, accomplice is Genji.

>> No. 21013 edit
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Alright it would start to hurt my conscious if I tried to mislead you guys anymore even playing as a witch. I'll relinquish to that pipe blue. There is a bit more to it of course but the first twilight was the only borderline unfair room.

As for the rest of that post, The bathroom and closet do not count as rooms separate from Natsuhi's room.
>> No. 21014 edit
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I was wondering... I noticed there are not many reds about the general rules of the gameboard. It is a little rude to ask, but I should check if the culprit is not one of the 17 canon Umineko characters.
>> No. 21015 edit
The body believed to be Natsuhi's was actually the culprit pretending to be dead. The real Natsuhi had been fiund during the first twilight but had been dressed as one of the other victims.

Alternatively, after Kumasawa left, Genji simply showed up, unlocked the door from the outside with his master key and left.

>> No. 21016 edit
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Of course the culprit was the witch Beatrice.

But yeah a person x is never a fun thing to have, assuming a human could be the culprit then the culprit has to be someone mentioned in the story.

The body in Natsuhi's room really was Natsuhi.

Also if you recall Genji didn't have his master key just like Kumasawa.
>> No. 21017 edit
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You have to answer properly the blue truths, Mr. Ozaki. I will be carefully examine your responses.

Kumasawa killed Natsuhi outside of her room. Genji placed her corpse inside of her room.
Genji unlocked the door to Natsuhi's room with a master key that wasn't his own.
Natsuhi's room door has an auto-lock mechanism.
Kanon or Shannon could have exited the boiler room if they broke through the door, nobody would have noticed if they closed the door after leaving.

And meanwhile I had another idea. The culprit is impersonating one of the victims of the first twilight. Without a face to prove the identities of the victims, the culprit just had to swap their clothes with the corpse.

Last edited at 17/10/25(Wed)00:38:44
>> No. 21018 edit
I don't actually remember when it was established genji didn't have his master key. I mean he could've just swiped one from the keychain found in the boiler room. Or the culprit swiped one, secretly gave it to Genji and Genji secretly gavr it back.
>> No. 21021 edit
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I don't have to deny blues that don't explain anything.
For example your first two only work if Genji had a key, but the master keys were all found in the boiler room.

There is no autolock on any door besides Kinzo's main study door.

The group would have noticed if the door was broken down.

None of the people found in the first twilight were pretending to be someone else.

Alright sure. Then how did Kyrie and or Rudolf escape?
>> No. 21022 edit
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...? What does this have to do with Kyrie or Rudolf?

When the bodies in the boiler room found, Genji found the servants' keys. It was during that time that Genji or the culprit could've swiped one that Genji could've used to lock Natsuhi's room door. Afterwards, there's no issue - he could've just gotten rid of it.

I'm not arguing for the Kyrie+Rudolf theory anymore after Genji has been confirmed the single accomplice and the first twilight's solved.

Last edited at 17/10/25(Wed)12:07:05
>> No. 21024 edit
Then it should be easy to actually deny it in red, right? Genji unlocked Natsuhi's room using a master key. There is no red about who kept the master keys and for how long. I don't need to specify anything else!
>> No. 21028 edit
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Right. I was just checking to see if you were still suspecting them, and wanted to hear your revised theory. We have been discussing the whodunit for a while now (Hence why I was denying things about the first twilight that made that theory possible).

Well yeah, I can't deny it. You guys took that whole part in a different way then I intended.
>> No. 21031 edit
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Yeah, I kinda got confused with the whole "Genji didn't have the master key" thing you brought up, so I just assumed the earlier explanation with Genji doing it had somehow been denied.

The only reasonable suspect has to be Kinzo at this point.

First Set: Trick with the pipes.
Second Set: Krauss killed way before, put in incinerator, scene between him and Genji is fantasy, Natsuhi was killed, Kumasawa's trouble with the door is explained with Genji locking/unlocking the door.
Third Set: Knocked on the door, created the locked rooms as explained earlier, left through the window.

I would've suggested Jessica, but her escaping the bathroom while Maria was in there to commit the third set would've made Maria an accomplice, so...

Last edited at 17/10/25(Wed)13:50:50
>> No. 21035 edit
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It's getting tricky to deny parts without being obvious now.

Kinzo never entered the study after the group first entered after the second twilight.
Kinzo was not in the room at that time.
Genji did not swipe one of the master keys.
Jessica never entered the study again until after they got the call in the parlor.

>> No. 21038 edit
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I mean

"Jessica never entered the study again" could very well be taken as "Jessica never entered the study again after murdering the shit out of everyone". Same with the key swiping - Genji might not have done it, but Jessica could've...

And trust me, suggesting anything is obvious is like a death sentence to me because the most obvious shit goes way over my head.
>> No. 21040 edit
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Well, like your typical gameboard there is only one master key per servant. A bit easy to notice a key missing out of five.

Jessica isn't the culprit.
>> No. 21042 edit
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One of the victims of the first twilight could've used Kinzo's body to make everyone believe they were dead. This doesn't break the "none of the victims of the first twilight were faking their death" because Kinzo was the victim of the first twilight, not the killer who used his body to present it as their own.
>> No. 21043 edit
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Kinzo was alive at the end of the game.
>> No. 21044 edit
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ah, fucknuggets

Kinzo entered with the group as they entered the study.
>> No. 21045 edit
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They would have noticed that.
Kinzo did not enter at the same time as the group
>> No. 21046 edit
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There's an extra person on the island.


Kinzo (the old dude) relinquished his name to someone else prior to the story and stopped being Kinzo - while someone else became Kinzo.
>> No. 21047 edit
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Well I did say in red it had to be someone named.

Nobody had at any time another name other than the one they are referred to as.
>> No. 21048 edit
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A woman named Beatrice IS stated in the story, y'know...
>> No. 21049 edit
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Human side admitted witch culprit.
>> No. 21050 edit
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I meant more Castiglioni.

I'm not sure which one of us is more desperate at this point but one thing's for sure

we both want this game to end
>> No. 21051 edit
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Can do.


Okay but really I'm burnt out. What am looking for is the name of the who, why you suspect them (ie something suggests they could be the culprit), and how they could have done the murders. Most of the murders are solved so that isn't as big as a deal. Anyone can pm me on discord their one shot theory, if someone gets it to a reasonable degree human side wins.
>> No. 21067 edit
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Alright so Deadon managed to solve enough of it for me to grant the human side a win.

I’ll explain the solution.


So the culprit was Eva, with Genji accomplice. During the night she solved the epitaph and he became her servant. As said in the story Kinzo was losing his mind, and would wander about for no reason. Although there were a few scenes showing sanity he basically was a poor old man deep into dementia.

Since this game was made with the intention of multiple rounds happening the whydunit was never properly hinted as it was going to be saved for the next game. Eva was suffering from an incurable disease and to put it simply killed the family she hated for the money to go to the kids and mainly her son. Eva lagging behind on the mountain path when they first arrived would have been one of the clues in later games.

Most of the closed rooms had been solved. The first twilight is fairly simple once you know the idea but is also the only one I kind of just gave away since it is somewhat unfair. This closed room isn’t really my style since it was more like how Umineko “hinted” things. You had the distraction of the sparks, the mention of pipes, and the existence of devices that could cut through metal. While everyone was looking away from the sparks Eva pulled the string with the key attached and set up beforehand through the pipe. So the sparks masked the sound of the key dropping into the room and also the action of Eva doing this in the first place.

You may notice a silly meta hint for this solution. Every other closed room features electricity and or water in some way, so logically the first twilight should also have something water related; the pipes.

After they left she gave a key to Genji to make it seem like someone else was on the island or faked their death. This was done with Natsuhi’s room and also the fact Natsuhi and Krauss were killed the night before with the rest of the first twilight. The incinerator was turned on while they were leaving thus leaving Krauss only partially cooked. The scene with Genji seeing them alive in the morning was a false perspective since he was an accomplice and nobody else saw them. Natsuhi’s door was never something to be solved, but rather indicate Genji had to have a master key and Eva likely would have noticed one of the only master keys missing, thus making her a likely suspect. This of course was more reliant on reds and mislead unintentionally.

The third twilight is cheeky. Eva wanted to get George out of the room with the cousins and was planning to plant the letter eventually. As it happens Kinzo came back and knocked on the door, which she used to her advantage. Normally it would be odd for Eva to let George leave while a murderer was about, but being the culprit makes more sense. Ultimately she knew George would want to leave as well if she framed the cousins and placed the letter there. Everyone’s eyes were fixed on the door as stated so this created an easy opening. Which is why I never argued this point.

Once they were gone Eva and Genji took everyone at gunpoint and set up the rooms. The execution was likely confusing unless you were already suspecting Eva. When the group came back in Eva was on the window ledge right outside of the window which was unlocked. The room was covered in blood and water to hide when she came back in and was drenched by the rain and had already stabbed herself to place the stake later. The movement in the back of the room caused the group to run over before checking the window and Eva came back in and went to the library right beside the bathroom. She then killed herself after locking the library door from the inside. Battler only declared the window locked after checking the bodies first.

Additionally George was the detective. He had the most screentime and was purposely placed next to Battler who had an unreliable perspective. Battler noticed butterflies before midnight suggesting this and this was the basis for the Rudolf and Kyrie theory.

For the record the Rudolf and Kyrie theory was actually intentional. It was the logical solution to the first closed room and I decided to make it work for the whole game. Of course once more veteran seacats started playing I decided to use it a bit more nefariously than intended. Same can be said for most of the game in regards to my red usage. Originally this was made for new players after all.

This was very unusual game for me. In any case while it did not turn out how I wanted someone did manage to solve it at the end so at least it wasn’t as bittersweet.

Thanks to everyone who played and or read.
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