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20615 No. 20615 edit

"Come on, Beato, you and I both know it's been slow..." said Rudolf, chasing Beatrice (who was wearing her casual clothes) down the hallway backstage of the theater. "We haven't put on a decent show for months. Face it, we need something new to spice things up."

"Rudolf, things are never slow enough for me to need one of your suggestions." Beatrice tried to walk faster.

"That's not fair! I mean, look at what Goat-kun managed to give you once you gave him a chance! Who's to say mine will be any worse?!"

"Lawyers, I'd wager," she said. Still, she came to a halt.

Smiling, Rudolf replied, "Eh, alright, you may have me there, but there's plenty of things changed around so that I'm pretty sure we'll be fine. Even if we're not, well...I know people who are good at dodging things like that. We'll be fine!"

"My confidence in you overflows," replied Beato, oozing sarcasm. "Fine! Fine, you're right, we've been needing something fresh for a while..."

"And I've even gotten us a debut overseas!" said Rudolf, piling on the charm. "New audiences, ripe for the plucking! I mean, starved for entertainment!"

"Stop while you're ahead, Rudy," she frowned. "What's the catch?"

"Eh heh heh. Catch? Why would there be a catch?"


"Alright, well...we have about a month to rehearse."

"A month? Are you insane? Most of our troupe is on vacation!"

"Well that's what makes you a magical stage manager, isn't it? We put our trust in you! I'll go get Kyrie, you handle the rest, alright?" With that, he was off.

"Rudolf..." she said, gritting her teeth and accidentally crumpling the script he'd given her. Sighing, she looked at it and flipped through it.

"Oh yeah," she said to no one in particular. "We're gonna get sued..."

Last edited at 17/10/03(Tue)01:54:06
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>> No. 20641 edit



Genji took a sip of the brandy, and said, "It was a valiant attempt, and so I congratulate you, but mistakes were made. One in particular will doom the attempt, and another will make it utterly pointless. Gohda in the kitchen with the stake. Kanon in the servants' quarters with the furniture. Shannon in the VIP room with the gold rope. Nanjo in Jessica's room with the hat stand. Maria at the entrance with the rifle. Who killed Kinzo Ushiromiya, where, and with what? I know who did it, and I'm going to explain how it was all done."


>> No. 20832 edit
Argh! I wanted to change my name to prevent confusion, and it deleted my post! Just my luck...

To summarize the original message, if it is possible could we get a layout of the areas that have been revealed in the mansion? I understand if this isn't possible, however.

Also, I am working on a timeline for character locations, and would like permission to post it once it's done.

Last edited at 17/10/12(Thu)14:39:28
>> No. 20838 edit
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"Hoh, it seems I've finally found my first challenger. Kihihihihihihi!" cackled Beatrice, stepping out to center stage and looking every inch the ruler of Rokkenjima.

"I suppose I can grant your request for a map, if it will make you feel better. It won't help you anyways!" She grinned a wicked grin and waved her pipe. In a shower of gold, a large parchment appeared.

"Behold!" she said proudly. "Complete and 100 percent accurate blueprints for-" She paused as she looked at them, then looked to the side. Offstage, Rudolf looked chagrined, shrugging. Beside him, Kyrie facepalmed. Back on stage, Beatrice coughed and resumed "-the mansion in this gameboard would...be too easy! So instead I grant you this rough sketch. It is not to scale, but it decently approximates the relationship of all the rooms to each other. If you were to line up the landings on the first floor sketch and the second floor sketch, you'd have an approximation of how they stack, as well!"

"Do not be concerned with how the secret passage physically connects," she continued, "nor how the dumbwaiter, with its openings marked in with red lines, connects. I have marked Rosa's, Eva's, and Rudolf's rooms, but know that these rooms count as 'guest rooms' when search patterns are discussed."

"Windows are marked in blue. The unmarked items in the Study are Kinzo's desk and the fireplace. The unmarked items in the Parlor are Kinzo's chair, the table, and the sofa. The lines in one section of the Basement are storage shelves."

She took a deep breath. "Finally, there are two rooms that I have given red text, declaring them unimportant. The red text on the sketch is official red text. The rooms are there, they exist, but were not mentioned in the tale, so they can be disregarded!"

She smirked, and threw the sheet up into the air. It grew in size, and hung itself from the rafters so that all challengers could see it clearly.

"Now then, as for your other request, you precocious upstart, I will grant your permission to post it. However, I am under no obligation to confirm it, correct it, or point out gaps, so you'd better be sure of it. After all, when it comes to witches, we can live one thousand years in the time it takes you pitiful humans to live six! Kyahahahahahahahahahaaaaaa!" She cackled, then gave a defiant and sinister grin.

"Just try to open this catbox!"

Last edited at 17/10/12(Thu)21:37:55
>> No. 20842 edit
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Thank you so much Beatrice for your generosity! It has been SO much help in creating my timeline.

In other news, oh god, the word Parlor and Entry don't look like words anymore, but I finally finished my spreadsheet. By the way, I am sorry for the size; it was originally an actual spreadsheet, but that wouldn't attach, so I went with an image.

To give details to anyone else who wants to use it, it goes by time and character, and lists where characters are said to be during MYSTERY sections. FANTASY sections are disregarded, as although they may have hints and clues, I at this point don't know how to separate truth and lie.

This is very important, so I'm going to say it twice; this spreadsheet is not supposed to include FANTASY sections!

Now, when it comes to locations, if a character goes to multiple locations during the same time period, it will be separated by commas.

If a location has "(?)" next to it, it means that it hinted, either through character dialogue, or in the story that a character would be there, without it definitely being said or shown. It is a clue to be taken with a grain of salt, but something to keep in mind. A character might assume another character to be in a certain place, or a character might say they were in a certain place, but that doesn't necessarily mean that is the truth.

A location that is "(?)" means that a character is or is headed somewhere, but it was not revealed where. For example, a character might be having a conversation with another, but there isn't a hint about their location, real or fake. A character might be entering a room, but it is not stated where they had previously come from.

A blank means that the character or their location during this time was simply not mentioned at all. Expect this a lot at times when Fantasy occurs.

While I did my best to be as accurate as possible, I can't say it is perfect; especially as I had to go over my worksheet again with the inclusion of the map layout (something I expected to do, but extra work is still extra work). In the end I'm only human. But, I made extra care to keep it accurate and to make no assumptions.

Do I have an answer to who's the serial murder here yet?

Well. No.

Through this however, I gained more hints! Mainly that Kanon's time of death is... uncertain. Up to 10:25 Kanon was definitely alive, but after that we can't be sure if he still is or not. I know Shanon gave the signal and received the Boiler Key, but it wasn't clear if she actually saw Kanon.
>> No. 20880 edit
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"Well, what is a witch if not generous?" replied Beatrice. "Still, I must recognize the great effort put into this. I daresay this might be the most fitting tribute to the witch that I have ever seen."

She then looked directly at the audience with a smug grin. "If none are willing to sit at the gameboard after something like this is provided, then I suppose I have won..."
>> No. 20881 edit
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How funny that nobody would even try the obvious bait. Seems like that one is up to me again. After all it would be the worst to think too far if we might just have been told the solution.

Kinzo's first death: Nobody died here.
Kinzo obviously had some plan for the night. He fired at the window to lure people back to him. The ring was hidden via secret passage.
Nanjo was in on it.

But a half-decent witch wouldn't do that, right?
>> No. 20882 edit

Beatrice winced. "No half-decent... No half-decent?!" She started fuming while backstage Rudolf and Kyrie looked frantically for Ronove.

"...Fine! I'll show you what kind of fantastic witch I am! I'll rip this pathetic blue to shreds! To start with, the ring was not hidden via secret passage! How do you like that?! Furthermore, Kinzo did not fire the gun at the window to lure people back! As for the rest-mrphrmbrhm!"

Ronove had clapped his hand over her mouth and was frantically whispering in Beatrice's ear while Rudolf and Kyrie caught their breath offstage.

Beatrice calmed down and plucked the hand away from her mouth. "...ahem. A great witch like myself knows not to let simple insults affect her game. I'll let the other blues stand. For now."
>> No. 20922 edit
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That so? In that case I just have to adjust the parts you denied, of course.

Same thing, except the ring was passed through the hole in the window, which was also made for that purpose.
He had his reasons, I'm sure.
>> No. 20929 edit
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Beato ground her teeth together, and looked to Ronove. Ronove, in turn, looked to Rudolf. Rudolf flipped through a scriptbook, and looked to Kyrie. Kyrie was deep in thought for a moment, then shook her head.

Beatrice looked incredibly tense, but then, with what seemed like a massive effort, relaxed and shrugged. "Alright, I won't face you on this battlefield just yet. I will not confirm what you have theorized in red, though, and I can always come back and smash it apart before the end. It merely amuses me to watch you think you have the correct answer. After all, when have any of my games ever been so simple as this?"

She cackled and held her arms wide. "Come, then! Shall you give me other blues for this room, or shall we hold a battle elsewhere?"
>> No. 20941 edit
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Oh, yay! I'm not doing this by myself, that's good!

I wanted to wait until someone else piped up so it's not just a flood of me talking (plus I don't think I could solve this on my own).

But, there's something I've been thinking about; Kyrie and Krauss have been kind of suspicious to me.

To be honest, I'm not sure they entered and got stuck inside the Servant's Hall via the dumbwaiter. I'll be completely honest, the reason I believe so is meta; the entry in which Krauss and Kyrie enter the dumbwaiter is a fantasy section. Such a mundane scene being fantasy must mean something, right? Something is hidden by it's existence.

It can't be them ending up in the servant's quarters, as we see them in the room in the next mystery scene. Same with the existence of the dumbwaiter and where it leads; these are absolute truths, spoken about in both the mystery section, and red "text" on the map. It could possibly be how Krauss got injured, but that seems like such a small thing to lie about. So, what makes sense to me is their entry via the Junk Room dumbwaiter is the one that's faulty.

They still somehow got into the Servant's room though, so how did they do it? They did not know the signal, and Kanon would have stabbed at them and called for help if they entered through the front door.

There is another possibility, as ridiculous as it is. It's possible that Krauss and Kyrie entered through one of the Servant Quarter's windows. Kanon thought the killer was one of the members in the mansion, so he wasn't watching out for anyone outside of the mansion attacking. He also wouldn't have considered someone inside the mansion coming in from the outside.

Looking at the text, I even have some possible evidence; the rope used to strangle Shannon was wet. This was very strange to me when I first saw the line; I thought it may have had something to do with the running shower, but I think I know now how it got wet. This rope was used to climb down into Servant's Room.

Last edited at 17/10/20(Fri)12:35:32
>> No. 20948 edit
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Krauss is certainly the most suspicious person. Because of the servants' quarters, and even more obviously because the gold bar room is unlockable "with a key that only he had", and "a key was required to lock or unlock every door in the mansion aside from Kinzo's study", which is very incriminating. That is certainly the most straightforward evidence against anyone.

And it is precisely because of this obvious evidence that it would be inelegant for Krauss to be the culprit! I will believe in your innocence, Krauss-san, even if noone else will!

* Krauss's gold bar room key was not in his possession the entire time! Someone else used it to take away the goldbar! Perhaps Krauss misplaced it, perhaps he gave it away, perhaps it was pickpocketed by Maria sneaking around, or whoever else!

* Even if not, when "Krauss shut <the gold bar room door>, turning the key", he did not actually seal the room! He could have turned the key without locking it, or locking it and then unlocking it again, or locking the door while it was open! The culprit entered the gold bar room, which had been left unlocked by Krauss! The next time the gold bar room is visited by the narrator, "Krauss let Kyrie into the room where once a gold bar had rested", notably no key or unlocking is mentioned.

(I have more, but I will avoid shotgunning)

Last edited at 17/10/20(Fri)06:08:21
>> No. 20949 edit
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"Ahh, there we go. I was hoping that I'd have a multitude of challengers! It's so much more satisfying to destroy the hopes and dreams of many all at once, rather than one at a time! Kyaaahahahahahahaha!"

"Very well, as a welcome to this game, I shall give you each a red! Praiseworthy, is it not?"


"Krauss and Kyrie did not enter the servants' room via the windows."


"Hoh. Well thought out. Very well, I'll cede this point: when Krauss left the gold bar room with Natsuhi, the door did not end up properly locked. As for the exact reason why? Well, I'll hold on to that card for the moment."

"Bravo, detectives, I find this quite stimulating!"
>> No. 20950 edit
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Gohda was actually dead before Kinzo's body was ever found. The narration states that Gohda was in the kitchen with Genji and Shannon, which would've been true - he'd been stuffed into a fridge. It's specifically noted Genji and Shannon had entered the kitchen together and the way the wording is, it's pretty clear Battler was only making small talk with the two of them. Gohda is nowhere to be found.

The killer had killed Gohda because they'd planned to strangle Kinzo and make it look as if Kinzo had been poisoned. The idea came to their head after they'd pickpocketed the key to Kinzo's study off of Genji and snuck into it, curious. There, they found the stakes and the secret passage to the parlor.

They killed Kinzo, strangling him. Unfortunately, while doing this, they had been witnessed by Maria, who'd snuck out of the guesthouse. The killer took the rifle, aimed at the window and fired, killing the girl. The murder had been witnessed from afar by Kanon, who wasn't sure what he'd seen, and later assuming what he saw was the killer firing at Kinzo from the outside, and no the other way around. Or, perhaps, he'd simply witnessed someone (Maria) sneaking around the mansion and assumed it was an intruder because it was dark.

The killer took the ring and hid it somewhere. The left the parlor through the secret passage and locked the study behind them. They then attacked and killed Gohda with the stake, having realized that they could make Kinzo's death look like a poisoning and stuffed him in a fridge. They later planted the key to the study back on Genji, before the body checks happened. Then, they went upon their business, until Kinzo's body was found. The sound Battler claimed to have heard really had just been thunder. The actual gunshot had been mixed in before then.

Later, the killer had a chance to move Kinzo's body back to the study through the secret passage. The killer was going to try and take advantage of the fact Kinzo's cause of death hadn't been certain.

Kanon's death is the one giving me the most trouble, mainly because the culprit would've had trouble gaining entry into the room. My best guess is that the door was never locked after Kanon gave the boiler key to Shannon. The killer, who took advantage of the commotion while Natushi and Eva were fighting, and simply entered the room, killing Kanon. They then took Kanon's master key, put it in the lock, and closed the door. The group, later assuming the door was locked, obviously couldn't turn the key. Kyrie and Krauss were dumbasses and didn't notice. Or maybe them yelling "we're trapped" came from while they were still trapped in the dumbwaiter. When Shannon blew the lock, the key flew out of it and landed in the corner.

As for Shannon's death, the killer took advantage of the blackout, killed her, took her key, killed the shit out of my man Nanjo (because if Nanjo could REALLY testify that Kinzo was dead at that time, that would've lessened the suspect pool; and Shannon was trouble if she realized the door to the servants' room wasn't actually locked). The killer then returned, put the key in the lock, and escaped by the dumbwaiter.

Finally, they put Maria's body in front of the front door.

Last edited at 17/10/20(Fri)08:22:40
>> No. 20952 edit

"...Ki...kiya...Kiyahahaha! Well well, that's quite a theory! It's like a sculpture of blue! I'll enjoy breaking it apart with a few sharp taps!"

Beato tapped her chin thoughtfully, then spoke:

"Strangling Kinzo would have left obvious marks. No such marks were observed when he was discovered.

Maria was not shot through the parlor window.

The killer never moved Kinzo's corpse through the secret passage.

Shannon didn't shoot the servants' quarters lock, remember?

During the blackout, at least one of the pair of Hideyoshi and Eva were in the servants' quarters at all times, and even in the dark would have noticed someone clambering out of the cramped dumbwaiter and running out of the room."

She cackled. "Oh my, it seems your blue truth might need some patching up, ehhhhh? I'd smash more but I should leave you a little hope..."
>> No. 20953 edit
File 137220095271.jpg - (110.26KB , 500x667 , tumblr_m4ytg3XsgH1qj1qsqo1_500.jpg )

Theory for Gohda's death remains the same.

Theory for how the culprit pickpocketed the study key off of Genji and then returned it to him is the same.

However, during that interval, instead of killing Kinzo, the culprit found out about the plan Kinzo had orchestrated. Kinzo was to fake his death and return via the secret passage, after Nanjo falsely confirmed the death.

During my timeline, when I had originally suggested the killer used the secret passage to bring the body to the study: the killer had simply killed Kinzo, who had gotten back to the study of his own free will.

Kanon's death happened the exact same way - door still wasn't locked - the only different is instead of the key the killer put something in the keyhole to make the key jam. The door itself, however, wasn't locked. The master key was either dropped in the room after the door was broken down, or it had been there the entire time and for whatever reason Krauss and Kyrie intentionally or unitentionally missed it.

The culprit didn't use the dumwaiter for Shannon's death - they simply locked the door from the outside and then dropped the key near the door while everyone was focused on George.

I still maintain Maria had been killed at an earlier point and then simply dragged to the front entrance, lessening the amount of time the culprit would've needed to prepare the scene.

The reason there was a hole in the window was because Kinzo had given his ring to Maria before initating the plan. Since that was in the plan outline, the culprit had found out about it, and she had to die at some point.

Kanon's story about an intruder was part of the fiction. Before Battler asked Genji to check up on Kinzo, the plan was for Kanon to rush in and claim he saw someone lurking around, prompting everyone to check the parlor and find Kinzo dead. Since Kinzo had already been found and was indeed dead for real, Kanon concluded something had gone terribly wrong and that the killer must've been among them.

>> No. 20954 edit

Offstage, Rudolf frantically flipped through the script while Krie thought.

Onstage, Beatrice looked like she was deep in thought. "Hmm...to tear the blue to shreds... Is it time yet....?" She asked the question almost impatiently, and glanced to the side. Suddenly, as if she had received some signal, she sighed.

"No, not quite yet, I don't think. I'll just take out one of your lynchpins. The door to the servants' quarters was locked immediately after Shannon received the boiler room key. So how did the killer get to Kanon, hmmmm?"
>> No. 20955 edit
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* Someone in the dumbwaiter kicked over the sofa while trying to smash through the plaster around the dumbwaiter entrance. Tragically, it fell on Kanon.

* Most likely, Kanon was killed by accident!

Last edited at 17/10/21(Sat)08:14:09
>> No. 20956 edit
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"So...let me get this straight. A sofa, just randomly on its end, got accidentally knocked over onto Kanon's head, because he'd decided to take a nap or something on the floor?"

Beatrice blinked a few times, then laughed. "Kyahahahhaaaahahah! Oh, that mental image is just too priceless! Kihihihihihihi!!" She laughed a bit more before finally regaining her composure.

Brushing a tear from her eye, she took a deep breath and straightened up. "Ahem. No. All deaths in this were intentional. A body with only half a head is definitely dead."
>> No. 20957 edit
File 150736714833.png - (158.78KB , 300x243 , rubus_transp_small_.png )
And why not! Kanon had had a busy day, he deserved a good nap. But there goes.

* When Krauss and Kyrie arrived in the servants' quarters, the dumbwaiter shaft entrance was already unsealed! It is a "fantasy" that the plaster was still intact!

* Indeed, that is how the murderer had entered the servants' quarters, before Krauss and Kyrie arrived!

* The murderer then killed Kanon, and also left through the dumbwaiter shaft!
>> No. 20985 edit
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"Hoh, it seems that a couple detectives seem to enjoy having me clamber into a cramped dumbwaiter. Tell me honestly, do you see this dress being able to compress that much, hmm? Kyahahahahaha!"

"The killer did not escape the servants' quarters by using the dumbwaiter shaft."
>> No. 21020 edit
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Been a few days, and my memory of the game's gotten a bit fuzzy, but how about this... since you didn't deny the blue about the plaster being already off:

The killer had murdered Kanon by drawing his attention through the hole in the plaster. This might've been achieved by the killer simply speaking to Kanon through the dumwaiter passage or by imitating a scream which later blended it with Rosa's. As Kanon peeked in, he was crushed by the dumbwaiter rushing down. After all, the thing must've been old, so chances are it could've moved faster than it used to, with its lack of maintenance. Kyrie and Krauss, later, when examining the VIP room called the dumbwaiter back up, went down, and, upon seeing Kanon's body, assumed they'd crushed him, so they tampered with the scene, putting his head under the couch.
>> No. 21023 edit

Beatrice was deep in thought for a while, but finally broke into a grin.

"Good, detective, good! You almost took a big bite out of me with that one, but this should take care of that! Kanon's corpse was not moved! Before you debate this point too, A culprit is the person who kills. Even if someone else had inflicted a fatal wound to Kanon, if Krauss or Kyrie killed him thinking he was already dead, they'd be the culprits instead."
>> No. 21033 edit
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The killer got into the servants' room through the dumbwaiter, killed Kanon, and then left through the door, which he was able to unlock with the key they got off of Kanon.

The key might've been left in the keyhole, and then flew out when the door was busted open. That, or perhaps either Kyrie or Krauss had intentionally hidden the key away from the other to help the culprit create the illusion of the locked room.

>> No. 21036 edit

Beatrice smiled ruefully.

"I was hoping to keep this ambiguous a while longer, but it seems it's not meant to be."

Her grin grew determined. "The culprit did not enter the servants' quarters via the dumbwaiter!"
>> No. 21053 edit
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I'm a bit fuzzy on the details by now as well, hope I'm not making some glaring mistake.


Between 10:25 and 10:45, while Battler was unconscious, the culprit entered the servants' quarters by door (which was unlocked), killed Kanon, placed his boiler room key near the door, exited by door or window. He left the door unlocked, since it had been that way before.

Later, Shannon and her group approach the door. "the door was opened and Shannon received the key to the boiler room before the door slammed shut again." suggests Shannon never saw Kanon alive while retrieving the boiler room key! Shannon opened the door, picked up the key, and it was either Shannon or the door mechanism itself that slammed the door shut.

The door to the servants' quarters was locked immediately after Shannon received the boiler room key, because Shannon locked it.

Last edited at 17/10/25(Wed)17:25:19
>> No. 21055 edit
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"So the assault on the servants' quarters continues? Very well, I shall protect it for all time! However, you make a note that I feel, for fair play, must be addressed."

"Battler was not unconscious for 20 minutes. The times listed are the start times of the scenes, but time progresses throughout the scenes. So all the talk and action in the study continues from 10:25 to sometime before 10:45. In actuality, Battler was only senseless for a short time."

"Now then, as for the actual theory you have proposed, I must say it was one I anticipated. So, have my prepared red! Shannon was actively handed the key to the boiler room, and then the door to the servants' quarters was locked from the inside immediately after!"

She grinned wickedly. "Do you dare pursue the obvious next step? I assure you, there is no joy down it..."
>> No. 21093 edit
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I was a bit embarrassed to come back, because, yes, my idea was pretty dumb, but I feel like I have to speak because I'm thinking Beatrice might have a point here; we are very focused on Kanon's death specifically. It might be good to move to other events for now and come back to Kanon later. I feel like we've been purposefully pointed towards a very difficult situation to suss out in order to distract us from weaker areas.

We might want to work on other deaths, and other clues as well. For example, the bloody gold bar was hidden very poorly, at least in my view; it was right next to the room where someone got their head busted in, and considering Krauss is the only one with the key, that looks pretty suspicious on his part. But, is that the point of why it was the way it was? To make it seem like Krauss did it? I'm not sure, and I don't really have a blue truth for it. I know Krauss didn't lock the gold bar door, but I don't know if it was intentional or not, or anything.

Also also... I forgot google docs exist. And didn't know about google sheets. So, link to excel down below, somewhat more readable than the picture!

>> No. 21129 edit
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Alright, witch. Here is the theory I have made from this mystery of yours and the reds obtained by all my comrades before me. May you enjoy it.

When they got dismissed of the parlor by Kinzo, everyone have dispersed, leaving enough room for the culprit to do their business. The first thing they did once alone is to go in Kinzo’s study. The door would be locked but it’s no problem for the culprit as they have Kinzo’s key. To be precise on this point, every members of the Ushiromiya family has been stolen an object during the dinner by Maria (except Maria, of course) and the say objects have been replaced by an object of similar template. Kinzo wasn’t an exception, and he received a gold-colored pen with a small red scorpion designs on it. Given that when Maria’s corpse has been found, there wasn’t any supplementary object that the ones stolen to the Ushiromiya present at the moment, it’s likely to imagine that Maria has been relieved of it earlier in the evening, by the culprit for instance who noticed her while she was exercising her “talent” during the dinner. In any case, the culprit obtained from Maria a goldy pen-like object belonging to Kinzo and it wouldn’t be far fetched to imagine that the object in question was the study’s key.
Now, back in Kinzo’s study,the culprit realized Kinzo’s plan for the night as the instructions for it were in evidence on his office (after all there was no need to hide them since the only person who could enter the room were Genji and Kinzo himself). This knowledge is the culprit’s strongest weapon as they will be able to create their plan over the plot prepared by Kinzo.
To claim the inheritance, the culprit had to kill Kinzo, recuperate the ring and above all else, not being indicted. Thanks to Kinzo’s plan, they figured that the elder of the family would be playing the dead in the parlor and after that he would go to his study using the secret passage between the parlor and the study, so the culprit would need two things: A decoy and an access to Kinzo’s study without the study's key.
The culprit took a stake from the room, which would be quite useful to draw everyone in Kinzo’s study later on, they went to the servants’ quarters where they recuperated trash bags (to avoid to receive blood on themselves while committing the murders) and flypaper.
After that they went to the kitchen to kill Godha from behind with the stake. Even if Godha saw the culprit approaching, he was enough at ease with this person to not suspect anything. Then the culprit has hidden Godha’s corpse in the refrigerator. Also, all this happen before the scene where Battler ask for tea to Shannon and Genji, when the narration mention Gohda being in the kitchen, it will refer to his corpse.
Back on the second floor to make ineffective the auto-lock of the study’s door via a mean X, which might require flypaper. By chance they eavesdrop the conversation in the gold bar room between Krauss and Natsuhi and decide that while they are at it, they could use this gold bar at their advantage and make ineffective the manual lock of the gold bar room’s door as well. That’s why even if Krauss turned the key in the lock, the door didn’t locked properly.

Once all set up, they just had to enable the gear. The discovery of Kinzo’s “corpse” is the beginning. Of course,when Genji checked on Kinzo, he would find the study’s key, but that’s because the culprit already returned it.
The ring’s disappearance shall be explained later, and about the broken window, Kinzo most likely shot it to give the impression he has been attacked by someone or something.

Of course during the general body check nothing suspicious like extra large black trash bags would be found on the culprit, they might have disposed of them in the gold bar room or even by a window if not needed anymore, even though I think the trash bags might be necessary for Kinzo’s “second” murder.
After that, everyone would search for the person absent, Godha, and as they couldn’t find him in the kitchen, they splitted.
Gohda’s corpse discovery turned to be the best decoy the culprit could have wished for as it gives them a frame of time in which they can run at the second floor, recuperate the gold bar as well as the trash bags for the eventual blood splinters, and enter the study to kill Kinzo, who was most likely taking a shower. Among the small details, the culprit put the bloody gold bar in evidence, disposed of Kinzo’s plan in the fireplace so no one could understand what’s going on, threw the trash bag by the window and enabled anew the locking capacity of both the study and the gold bar room. The culprit then joined again a group like nothing happened.

As planned by the culprit, the stake received the desired effect and everyone decided to check out Kinzo’s study. During this transition part, Kinzo’s plan is still ongoing and Kanon display his best acting. He seems quite shaken though when Genji tell him that there has been two murders. The emphasis he put on the “two” might be because only one “murder” was planned for the time he should make his entrance, namely Kinzo’s one. But for the moment, Gohda being the only odd, the show must go on.

Later on, Genji will say that Kanon locked himself in the servants’ quarters for his own safety, but that’s actually just one more act of Kinzo’s plan. Indeed, Shannon going to search for the boiler room key in the servants’ quarters is unnecessary from a logistical point of view, given that she possesses a master key and later on in the story Genji will open the boiler room with his master key. The real reasons behind this act were to have witnesses of Kanon being alive in the servants’ quarters at this moment (otherwise Genji would have been suspected), being virtually unapproachable unless you possess the secret signal, and in sum, create another false closed room murder.

There is two ways to go on Kanon’s murder, but either way, I believe he willingly opened the door to his murderer. The culprit profited a moment when nobody was around checking other parts of the house to talk with Kanon through the door. Maybe they said that they knew about the plan and they had a message from another person involved, anyway, Kanon wasn’t particularly wary as he couldn’t imagine an instant the person he was talking to had murderous intents.
Now the first possibility is that the culprit never entered the servants’ quarters to kill Kanon, in this case, the culprit gave to Kanon something to eat or drink which was obviously poisoned (pest control supplies), Kanon closed the door by himself, put the key on the table by the door then he died few moment later. In this case it’s Krauss and Kyrie who messed up with Kanon’s corpse for some reasons. That would explain the use of the fantasy label for this scene when they enter the servants’ quarters by the dumbwaiter.
The other possibility is that the culprit entered the room and carried the murder with their own hands. They just would have to take with them Kanon’s master key, and while everyone was looking at Kanon’s corpse during the discovery, they dropped the master key on the table.

On the matter of the door’s lock when they try to unlock it, either way the culprit put something in the lock to make the key jam,or Shannon gave purposely the boiler room key to Battler and lied when she confirmed that it was indeed a master key, which would be another part of Kinzo’s plan to make the bystanders think that the door wasn't unlockable with a master key.

After that, Nanjo will be isolated in Jessica’s room and soon will begin the final act. Shannon, Nanjo and Maria’s deaths. Though, to understand why the culprit went on rampage this time, it’s needed to return to the matter of Kinzo’s plan and his ring’s disappearance. If Kinzo gave the impression that he left a chance for anyone to kill him, it wasn’t quite the case, as he prepared his false death and with the help of Nanjo and the other servants, he should have easily been out of range until midnight.
If his plan had gone as planned and he was still alive, Maria’s intervention a quarter of an hour before midnight would have been the culmination. She has been asked by Kinzo himself to brought his ring at this hour. A tierce person from outside the mansion would explain the disappearance of the ring, without opening the parlor door nor using the hidden passage.
I can imagine everyone gathering to question Maria, Kinzo making his coming out, taking the ring from Maria and saying something like: “The only one able to kill Kinzo is Kinzo himself! Thus I shall be the one to inherit my fortune, no money for poor people! Mwhahahahaha!!”... I wouldn’t put it past Kinzo...
Anyway, the culprit knew that Maria was coming and they had to immobilize the others people in the house the time to recuperate the ring, which explain the blackout. Of course, the whole mansion would be in the dark, but the culprit had the spelunking equipments brought by George and Battler at this effect. First thing, they knocked out Shannon then brought her body in the parlor. From this point, they had a master key. They cut the electricity and closed the basement door. They rushed upstair making sure that no one was in the hallway. Also, of the rooms they planned to visit, one was a locked room and the other has been already inspected by Krauss and Kyrie thoroughly as Kanon’s part learnt us.
From the window of the junk’s room, they throw an end of the yellow rope hanging, returned to the parlor and recuperate the rope’s end by the broken window. Then they wrapped the rope around Shannon's neck, went back in the junk’s room to pull up Shannon from the parlor.She probably died at this moment if the culprit didn’t strangled her to death when they knocked her off. That would account for the state of Shannon’s neck and the wet rope, as the weather was rainy outside.
Once done there, the culprit closed the window and locked the door, then went to pay a visit to Nanjo with a hat stand they found in the junk’s room. They sneaked in the room, thanks to the master key and killed Nanjo with a good hit on the head. They locked the room on their way out and returned downstair waiting for Maria. When she rang at the door, the culprit opened then killed her with the gun (which had two bullet remaining). They took the ring that Maria had brought with her, threw the gun beside her and locked the room before to return where they were supposed to be.
When the lights went on, everyone would come to the first floor as the only person who would be able to open to George, Rosa and Rudolph locked in the basement was Genji (and the culprit, but well). Once they got out of there, the culprit took advantage of George hasty behavior to find Shannon, so they guided him as fast as possible, in such manner than when the junk room’s door was open, there would be the less number of witnesses possible. Before the adults catch up with the cousins, and while those last were shaken by the view of Shannon’s corpse, the culprit put the master key they kept on them on the lock inside, to give the impression of closed room.

And, that's it. feel free to give us a lot of red to put my blue truths to shred. Also I won't name the culprit I have in mind yet since I know a lot of my blues will be strike down. So just wait for it.
>> No. 21130 edit
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Beatrice hung her head silently for a moment after this onslaught of blue was spoken. Then, she slowly began to clap. Lifting her head, she smiled.

"Bravo, detective. That was truly wonderful. A marvelous piece of reasoning supported by excellent focus on details."

She paused, then grinned wickedly. "It is, of course, wrong! Kiyaahahahahaha! Here's some red for you!"

"Kinzo possessed his key to the study for the entire time he was alive.

The door to Kinzo's study always worked perfectly.

Kanon did not die from poison.

Maria never possessed Kinzo's ring.

If Shannon (alive or dead) had been outside,
she would have been wet. She was not. Only the rope was wet.

At the time the door of the junk room was being kicked open, the master key was on the inside of the junk room, in the keyhole.

She breathed out, and nodded. "There we go. I admit I have left most of your blue untouched, but to destroy it all so quickly would require far more red than I'm willing to give. I think I've poked sufficient holes."

She looked thoughtful for a moment, then nodded resolutely, as if deciding something. "Still, I must admit you have a fine eye for details. In recognition of such, I will confirm a few more things in red for you:

Maria did steal something from Kinzo.

The culprit took flypaper and trash bags.

She smirked. "Care for round 2?"
>> No. 21131 edit
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Alright so, out of the few reds you gave me, here’s what I make of them.

First thing,“Kinzo possessed his key to the study for the entire time he was alive.” coupled with the narration listing us the possessions on Kinzo’s body in the parlor when Genji is searching on him for any clue and picking up the study key lead us to the logical conclusion that Kinzo was dead back then.
If Kinzo was still alive, it would contradict the red. Then again, there is still the possibility that Genji didn’t picked “Kinzo study’s key”, but a spare which should also be a study’s key as later on during Gohda’s discovery the narration will confirm that Genji displays two study’s keys. Like it would require three keys whose one has never been mentioned in the story, except maybe the object stolen by Maria to Kinzo, but even if, that would mean Maria took the spare and Genji have to take Kinzo’s key on his body, thus we are back on the first conclusion.

Now if Kinzo was dead back in the parlor, nothing as neat as the body lifting up and going to the study’s bathroom all by itself is possible, which mean the culprit went out of their way to the parlor, carried Kinzo’s corpse to the study’s bathroom, then made a scene out of his corpse. For that to be doable, the culprit had to have an access to the parlor after the discovery of Kinzo’s body in there and an access to Kinzo’s study. I stand my ground regarding the goldbar room and the culprit going in Kinzo’s study thanks to the study key they put back on Kinzo before the discovery in the parlor.

For Kinzo’s study, the culprit didn’t closed the door the last time they went there before they brought the corpse, so the room never locked and it was easy to enter. They might have used paper fly to keep the door still, so the door would seems closed from afar but actually wasn’t (and anyway no one would went at the end of the corridor since there is only the Junk’s room and Kinzo’s study there).
Concerning the parlor, the culprit couldn’t pull the same trick as everyone was around when Genji locked the parlor’s door. Instead, when everyone rushed to the kitchen to search for Gohda, the culprit before following them, unlocked the parlor’s door with Gohda’s master key. The same key they used to enter the parlor to kill Kinzo and recuperate his study’s key. While we are at it, Gohda’s master key has been returned to him during his corpse’s discovery, in plain sight, before the culprit got to move Kinzo’s corpse.
The culprit lifted the corpse from the parlor to Kinzo’s study using the doors of the respective rooms, and they did this aware that everyone was gathered on the west side of the Mansion’s first floor. They prepared the scene, then went back to the group.

The culprit’s next move was meant to cover for their previous misdeed. The door of the parlor was still unlocked, and locking it would require a master key. The people with a master key would be Shannon, Genji, Kumasawa and Kanon. Of course, out of this four people, one is out of reach and two are always grouped with someone else, so the only possibility left is the isolated sheep which seems untouchable, Kanon.
Concerning his death, if no poison has been used, I stand my ground on my second hypothesis already mentioned, namely
the culprit talked to Kanon who willingly unlocked the door, then the culprit entered and killed him with their own hand. After that the culprit could have locked the parlor’s door with Kanon’s master key before to return the said key in the servants’ quarter during the body discovery.

Now I got two blues respectively for your two reds apropos of Shannon’s murder and her body’s discovery:
Shannon’s body was put head on in an extra large trash bag then lifted up by the neck through the windows. In those condition, the rope would be wet, but not Shannon.
If the key was on the inside of the Junk room when the door was kicked open, that just mean bystanders were fooled by the culprit because the door wasn’t even locked while being kicked open.

While it doesn't explain everything, I think I made amend for most of the blues you denied, thus I'm eagerly waiting for your next move.
>> No. 21133 edit
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Beatrice's eyes narrowed.

"Hmm, quite impressive theories. It seems that I may have been treating you too lightly, giving you those extra hints." She waved her hand imperiously. "No matter! It just means I'll have to be a little more...surgical...in my use of the red. Less a sword, more a scalpel."

She thought for a couple moments, disregarding the frantic waving from offstage, and then nodded. "This should take apart some of your key arguments:

Flypaper was not used to keep a door from properly closing or locking.

At the time Kinzo died, the door to his study was properly closed and locked.

From the time Gohda was killed to the time Genji took his master key from his corpse, Gohda's master key did not leave his side.

She rolled her shoulders like she was working out tension before a fistfight. "No reason to tackle all of your theories all at once, right? If there's any mystery you can't explain, I win. So keep it coming. I'll knock them all down until you're left kissing my toes."

She turned to look at the rest of the audience. "That goes for you all, too! If anyone thinks they have what it takes to bring me down, alone or in a group, speak up!"

I've been on vacation too long. I forgot how exhilarating this could be, she thought, reminding herself to thank Rudolf, assuming they didn't get sued.
>> No. 21134 edit
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The culprit saw Krauss and Natsuhi entering the gold bar room, the reason that the door did not end up properly locked was because the culprit tampered the door so he/she could see the gold bar, maybe with the trash bags.
Kinzo pretended to be dead and hid the ring in his study, he used a drug that suppressed his pulse to almost a halt to fool Nanjo and planned to go to his study but the Culprit, who went to the parlor's window to grab the key to Kinzo's study to see the paperwork, saw Kinzo using the secret passage, he/she planning to murder him went back to the gold bar room to use it as a murder weapon (to frame Krauss maybe), went to the parlor via the window, used the secret passage to enter Kinzo's study and killed him while he was preparing to take a bath.

I still have more theories but since I don't want to see them being denied right away I'll polish them before saying it so that I can get it right sometimes.
>> No. 21135 edit
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"Oh?" asked Beatrice, looking towards the newcomer. "Wouldn't Kinzo playing dead at the time of discovery in the parlor contradict the red from earlier?

Kinzo possessed his key to the study for the entire time he was alive.

After all, it was shown that Genji took the master key from Kinzo while Kinzo was apparently dead in the parlor. As you seem to be arguing that Kinzo survived past that moment, you have to show me a way around the red truth. What do you propose?"
>> No. 21136 edit
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Fine, if Godha’s master key is overruled, let’s try another way.
First, I’d like that you confirm in red how many master keys and keys to Kinzo’s study exist in the mystery. Regardless of this information which I hope you will grant me, I’ll help myself of this last blue given by Vianfour to try something new.

The culprit entered the parlor by the window. They applied flypaper on the glass of the window and broke it in such way that none a single glass shard would fall on the inside. With this overture in the window they opened the window and entered in the room. Kinzo was drugged at the time so he couldn’t do anything to fight back, and the culprit killed him. If I should take a guess, they might have asphyxiate him with a trash bag, given that such method wouldn’t leave any traces. Then the culprit shot outside with the gun which was still in the room, and put the gun in Kinzo’s hand to give the impression the break in the window was caused by a shot from Kinzo. Finally the culprit took Kinzo study’s key and escaped the room by the window without forgetting to close behind them.

To make things clear, according to this blue, Godha has most likely been killed after Kinzo since his master key wasn’t required to enter in the parlor, and the culprit could have been to Kinzo’s study (access to Kinzo’s plan and stake) before to kill Godha. The way the key is returned to Kinzo’s corpse is still the same than during my previous theories, so no real need to use the window for that.
>> No. 21137 edit
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Beatrice nodded. "In the interest of striking down 'endless key' theories, I shall tell you. There are only two keys to Kinzo's study in this game. There are five master keys. At the start of the game, Shannon, Kanon, Genji, Gohda, and Kumasawa all had one."

Then she paused as she considered the blue truth the detective had laid out. A slight sheen of sweat was visible on her brow, and her eyes flicked offstage. Rudolf was pacing, while Kyrie was looking at the floor and chuckling. Getting no help there, Beatrice remained silent a moment more, then stiffened her spine.

"Kinzo fired the rifle. Kinzo was not incapacitated by being drugged."

She sighed, then shook her head. "As for the part about the window...I acknowledge it. The culprit used fly paper to break a hole in the window without scattering glass inside. The culprit entered and exited the room through the window." She frowned. "It seems you've taken one of my bishops. Excellent move."
>> No. 21138 edit
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That’s good to be acknowledged on one point at last, but there goes some troubles with those reds… Although I will neglect those for the moment as I’d like to have some confirmations before to reason further.

First, are the study keys presented by Genji in the kitchen and described as such by the narration the “only two study keys”, namely Genji’s and Kinzo’s, or is it possible that as the corpse matter Ronove brought in umineko, one of the key presented is a “study key” without being “Kinzo’s study key”?

Secondly, is it possible to open Kinzo study’s door from the inside without having one of the two study keys?

And last one, about this red: “The ring was not hidden via secret passage , does that mean the ring hasn't been hidden in the secret passage? Or more widely that the secret passage has no role at all in the ring’s disappearance and thus, would the secret passage hasn't been a thing, the ring still would have been hidden the way it happened?
>> No. 21139 edit
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"Hmph. I'll play your game. I have no need to quibble on such wordplay in this game."

"Only a key to Kinzo's study may be called any variation of 'study key.' For the purposes of this game, that is the only study."

"The existence of the secret passage had no bearing at all on the hiding of the ring."

"The door to Kinzo's study could be unlocked and opened from the inside without a key, but once it was closed, it would always lock. In other words, it could not be made to be 'unlocked but closed.'"

She grinned mockingly. "Is that enough of a helping hand for you?"
>> No. 21140 edit
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Thank you for all those reds, it’ll help a lot.

So, thanks to this red:"Only a key to Kinzo's study may be called any variation of 'study key.' For the purposes of this game, that is the only study. " The only keys available for Kinzo’s study are Kinzo’s and Genji’s. From that, the moment Genji takes the key on Kinzo’s body in the parlor, there is only two possible outcomes:

The first one is that, he indeed took Kinzo’s key, but in this case and according to this other red: "Kinzo possessed his key to the study for the entire time he was alive ", Kinzo must be dead.

The other possibility would be that the key he recuperates on Kinzo’s body is actually his own key of the study he’d hide in the handkerchief he used to check on the body. In this case, Kinzo’s key of the study would still be on him.
Of course, Genji would have done that on purpose according to Kinzo’s plan, but that would suggest that Kinzo would need his key of the study, and only for a short amount of time, as Genji don’t break a sweat when he shows the two keys for Kinzo’s study during Gohda’s corpse discovery (which would also require an agreed place for Genji to recuperate Kinzo’s key since from Kinzo’s body discovery to Gohda’s body discovery, Genji is never alone and thus couldn’t possibly meet with Kinzo).
Being unable to see how the key would be of any use to Kinzo for this short amount of time, since he could access his study by the secret passage in the parlor and even exit his study without any key (The door to Kinzo's study could be unlocked and opened from the inside without a key). Even if we would suggest that, Kinzo’s intention was to kill Gohda in the kitchen (which would be hard in itself since Kinzo would need to go downstair and everyone was checking each other in front of the parlor’s door, thus in front of the staircase), he wouldn’t require the key for his study. If he wanted to leave the study and come back after the murder, he could have let the door open as all the others weren’t supposed to go upstair before Gohda’s corpse discovery.

From all that, I say it again, but this time with more weight.Kinzo was dead during the discovery in the parlor.

Now from this basis, we can look at what happened in the parlor before the discovery, and the way, the culprit moved Kinzo’s corpse from the parlor to the study.

About the first matter, there is the gunshot issue.
If The culprit used fly paper to break a hole in the window without scattering glass inside and Kinzo fired the rifle then, Kinzo isn’t the one responsible for the broken window. Which question where, when and why Kinzo shot with the gun. The first thing that come to mind is that he aimed at the culprit while they were breaking in by the open window, though that would imply that Kinzo missed the culprit, which should lead to a fight between Kinzo and the culprit. The problems with this sequencing of the event are the following: Kinzo had four more shots available if he missed the first one, furthermore as we could see later, the gun is functioning perfectly and a layman such as Shannon was able to shoot two bullets in a row. Conclusion, the gun wasn’t used on the culprit. But the gun wasn’t used in the room either or else, there would be a trace of it somewhere.
A weird thing to notice, Kinzo had on his body five bullets of the proper caliber for the riffle. For which purpose would Kinzo need a full cartridge when the gun is already full? To this problem I propose the following solution.
Kinzo didn’t plan to die from the very start, so of course, it would have been a blunder if someone took the gun and shot at him during the dinner. To avoid such a scenario to happen, during the dinner, the gun was charged with blank bullets. Like that, even if someone shot at him, this person would just be accused of tentative of murder and Kinzo would still be alive. Also, the five bullets on Kinzo’s body would be to replace the blank bullets for after, in the case someone would try out the gun later on.
When Kinzo was alone in the room, he had to prepare himself to play the dead body. At this effect, I suspect the object stolen by Maria to be of the first importance. Like it can’t be the key to Kinzo’s study, I’d rather think about a syringe containing a drug x which would have for purpose to makes Kinzo looks dead.
But instead of this syringe, Kinzo finds a pen, so he has to think about a method to look dead without this drug x. For this purpose he uses the gunshot. He substitutes all the blank bullets except the first to come as he couldn’t change them after, and my best guess is that he shots with the gun next to his eardrum which made him pass out and fall on the ground. Then come the murderer by the window, who has the chance to find an incapacitated Kinzo in front of them, and they kill him.

For the second matter, let’s review the different options to exit the parlor after it has been locked by Genji, and the options to enter Kinzo’s study.

Thanks to this red: "The killer never moved Kinzo's corpse through the secret passage" we know that this way is condemned, also, if the culprit entered through the parlor’s window, it’s most likely because they weren’t in the possession of any master key, and as we know thanks to a previous red, Gohda’s master key isn’t an option. Thus, it’s by the window that the culprit moved Kinzo’s corpse out of the parlor.
Now about Kinzo’s study, if we rule out the door option because Genji has the two only keys able to open the study, and it is unlikely that the culprit just left the door open before to return the key on Kinzo’s corpse during the first discovery as it would be way too obvious for someone passing in the hallway, this time again, the way to go is the window.
The culprit lifted Kinzo from the parlor’s window directly by the study’s window as Kinzo’s study is above the parlor.
To do so, while they still had the key for Kinzo’s study, the culprit prepared a rope hanging from the study’s window, which mean the device was actually in place during the first body discovery. Also, the culprit could have left by the study’s door, so nothing weird about the window being locked.
Aaaand, I'm done for now. What do you think of it, witch?
>> No. 21141 edit
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"I...I..." stammered the witch, breaking out in a sweat.

"I...acknowledge that Kinzo was dead during the discovery in the parlor. As for the whole scenario..."

She shook her head resolutely. "No. I refuse to do this in a piecemeal fashion. You think you have me cornered, detective? Then how about this? I'll give you some of my remaining reds. In return, you'll have to answer some certain questions for me before I'll acknowledge your all-encompassing yet feeble blue truth about what happened this night."

"Question 1: Kinzo was alone in the parlor when he died. He was not given a poison. How did the killer kill him?"

"Question 2: It's been established that Kinzo was dead at the time his body was discovered in the parlor and Kinzo possessed his study key the entire time he was alive. Furthermore, I'll confirm this for you! Gohda died by that stake before Kinzo died! That clashes with your theory about how the culprit got a stake for Gohda. How did the killer get the stake used to kill Gohda, if your timeline is correct?"

"Question 3: Kanon would only open the door to the servants' room to the aforementioned knock. How did the killer know it?"

"Question 4: The killer did not get into the room to kill Nanjo with a master key. How did they do it?"

She drew herself up to her full height and spoke loudly. "If these questions can be answered, only then will I permit you the chance to name someone other than I, the Golden and Endless Witch Beatrice, as the culprit."

Last edited at 18/01/10(Wed)11:43:31
>> No. 21142 edit
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I'm sorry, I keep asking questions or putting up possibilities that are pretty dumb, but I want to try at least!

The fact the study could be unlocked and opened from the inside made me wonder what other doors worked as such; I suspect that the Servant's Quarters door, when unaltered, worked the same way, but I'm not sure, but maybe it goes even further than that.

Jessica probably would have said something if this was the case, but perhaps even she didn't know about it. It's possible that Jessica's door unlocks and opens from the inside, and thus it's possible Nanjo himself let in his murderer.

Of course, if that doesn't work, than the other alternatives is Jessica's Key (which Jessica has and that's a lot of questions to answer) or the window (which considering Jessica's room is on the top floor, that's unlikely.)

By the way, I would like to make clear that unlike with the gold room, the text of the mystery section outright states that the door of Jessica's room was locked. Thus, when Jessica turned the key to lock Nanjo in, the door was definitely locked. It seems obvious to say, or possibly even counter-intuitive for solving the mystery, but it's important to make this information clear so we don't waste time running down paths that are just dead ends.
>> No. 21143 edit
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"Oh ho! Good to see you again. Very well, I'll grant you this. Jessica's room, once locked, could only be unlocked with a master key or Jessica's room key, no matter from the inside or outside. I'll also confirm that Jessica turning the key in the lock while everyone was watching indeed locked the door. That should wrap that up, yes?"
>> No. 21146 edit
I'm sorry for the silence again! I wanted to give room for the others to talk.

... and, I've been struggling with the game, myself. There have been a few things I've been thinking about. Since "The killer did not get into the room to kill Nanjo with a master key.", we can rule out the master key being used to get into Jessica's room. This also means that it was unlikely used to then get out of Jessica's room after, as if the killer had the Master Key to get out, they would have used it to get inside in the first place. To clarify,the killer did not have the Master Key at the time of Nanjo's murder. Now, that doesn't rule out that the murderer ever at any point had the key before for some reason losing possession of that key, or even gaining it afterwards, but that means it's unlikely for those who had access to the master keys to be the killer, as they would have just used that.

This also means that either the door was unlocked with Jessica's key, or another means not using Jessica's door was used, as "Jessica's room, once locked, could only be unlocked with a master key or Jessica's room key, no matter from the inside or outside" doesn't rule out the possibility of another entry that doesn't include the door to Jessica's room.

Ah, someone should make a chart of the locations of all the Master Keys... and it's not going to be me! I don't want to do charting again!

One finally thing is just a hint to those better at me at solving these sorts of things; Kinzo's situation is very strange to me. We have confirmed that Kinzo was very dead during the parlor discovery. Why was his body then moved and stripped of clothes before being bashed in the head. That's a lot of work to do to a dead body for no reason, and the reason can't be "he wasn't dead yet.". It still happened though, which means there must be a reason someone decided to do that. This is not something someone does incidentally; the person who did this needed to. It's even possible, for whatever reason, that it was not the killer who moved the body.

I have no idea what the reason might be for doing something like that, but there was surely a reason to move and "rekill" a dead man. Maybe it had to do with the intended plans for the night...?

Last edited at 18/02/03(Sat)21:07:23
>> No. 21147 edit
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Since my Octo friend is on Nanjo’s case, I’ll let them handle it, though if I may Lady, you should be less roundabout and more assertive in your reasoning. It is the way to go to draw in your mind which scenarios are good and which ones are unlikely, or even impossible, but once you are done with that you must test the veracity of those conclusions.
Master key being out of the way, you already said there were two other possibilities: Jessica’s key, which open some question lines, and the window, which is unlikely. Then go on. Try out the easiest way with questions such as “How can the culprit could obtain Jessica’s key?”, and if it comes to a dead end, try out the unlikely one.
If you take hold of your reason by the good end you shouldn’t have any problem.

Now, let see about those three other murders...
Kinzo’s really is a key one by how restricted it has become with your last red:
“Kinzo was alone in the parlor when he died. He was not given a poison.”, furthermore, the fact that Gohda died before Kinzo by a stake which was supposed to be in the study makes it really interesting.
I doubt that the culprit knew at the time how to use the secret passage in the parlor (otherwise they would have used it to move the corpse), Kinzo’s key was unusable ‘cause he theoretically had his key on him and finally I doubt the culprit had any occasion to take Genji’s study key. Basically my assumption is that, the culprit didn’t enter the study before Kinzo’s death. And if the culprit didn’t goes to the stake, it must have been the stake that went to the culprit...

So what if the X object stolen by Maria was Kinzo’s plan for the night? This way the culprit could have exchanged the gun charged with blank bullets by a gun charged with real bullets before the conference (or eventually just the bullets inside of the gun), and if Kinzo died alone in the parlor, it’s because he shot himself believing that the gun contained blank bullets.

Also, it is possible that the stake that killed Gohda wasn’t in Kinzo’s study purposely for Kinzo’s plan and the culprit has been able to put a hand on it thanks to that.

This way, when the culprit entered by the parlor’s window, they knew that Kinzo’s would have kicked the bucket, and in a gruesome way at that. So the culprit didn’t go in the parlor to kill Kinzo but to clean the mess (with the help of the cleaning supplies in the servant room) and recuperate the ring.

Would have been a normal situation, Nanjo surely would have picked at that on Kinzo’s body, but he wasn’t supposed to make a real autopsy as Kinzo wasn’t supposed to be dead, and the culprit made sure that it wouldn’t be noticeable. With this interpretation, the culprit didn’t messed Kinzo’s corpse with the golden bar for the only purpose to frame Krauss and make believe Kinzo was still alive during the discovery in the parlor. They bashed Kinzo’s head so no one could tell he has been shot.

Regarding Kanon’s case, if the culprit couldn’t eavesdrop while Genji gave the signal to Shannon or when Shannon used it herself, the only thing I can think of is that,the secret signal had to be known from all the people implicated in Kinzo's plan, thus it had to be prepared beforehand so not only Genji and Shannon should know, but also Nanjo and Kinzo himself. For what purpose? Maybe Kanon's fake death would require a second person for some reason, person who would have been Kinzo has he still should be alive but considered as dead, anyway, the secret signal would have been explained on the paper depicting Kinzo's plan.

Also, a bit out of the blue, I noticed something and wanted to come back on the problem of the unable locks. There is two cases in the mystery which seem to present locks mechanism that don’t work, namely the golden bar’s room which is still unlocked even if Krauss turns the key in the door on his way out, and the servants’ quarters which is impossible to unlock even if Shannon uses her master key. So I wondered… Would it be possible to disable any key effect on those doors by putting, I don’t know… for exemple... gum inside of the key hole? ‘Cause in this case, the culprit would use this trick both while Krauss and Natushi were in the golden bar’s room and after they locked the servants’ quarters with Kanon’s master key (whom they had already killed).
>> No. 21148 edit
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Thank you so much! This is my first time on a gameboard like this, so I have been quite sheepish.Thinking things through like this is still difficult for me, but with your help, I think I have an idea.

Though, I don't like the idea because it's still pretty messy (as well as personal reasons), but it's the most obvious conclusion.

After all, the easiest way to get the key to Jessica's room would be to be Jessica. It's zero steps; if Jessica was the one who killed Nanjo, they already had the key in their hands. They were even very close by when the murder possibly occurred, and only had one other person with them during that time (technically Krauss and Kyrie were there near the beginning, but did not stay very long), and one of them was busy searching. It's even possible that Jessica suggested splitting up by giving the excuse of clearing more ground, and took that time to kill Nanjo. We don't even have much in the way of information of what happened with them during that time, just that they "resumed checking the top floor guest rooms." Everyone else at least got a little bit of flavor text.

To be honest, I should have noticed this earlier, but I did not.

Jessica slipped away during the search of the top floor guest rooms, unlocked the door with her key, killed Nanjo, then left and re-locked the door.

Also, I hate to be the one to do this, since you were the one to encourage me, but the idea that Kinzo shot himself has some questions to solve. For a second there I thought it was impossible, but re-reading it makes it seem more likely. But I will ask what Beatrice would probably ask; how did the killer hide a hole from a rifle? Remember also that if Kinzo shot himself there would be a powder burn, which would have to be hidden as well.

I don't see any problems with your other possibilities, though! But we will have to wait for a reply from Beatrice.

(sorry for all the edits btw; stuff kept getting messed up. :( )

Last edited at 18/02/04(Sun)19:33:13
>> No. 21149 edit
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"Well well well, it looks like there is now an active alliance against me. I suppose I should be honored that it takes collaboration to bring me down. Come, then!"


Beatrice smirked. "Just because it will be fun to see you try to wrap your brain around this one, the culprit actually had access to a master key at the time of Nanjo's murder. "


"And as for you, your friend is right. Getting shot would be far too much to clean up in so short a time. So I'll give you this red: Kinzo was not shot. As for the stake, no stakes were removed from the study for Kinzo's plan. The culprit is the only one who removed a stake from the study during the course of the evening.

She winced, then. "Though you did get a few things right. The instructions for the secret knock were written in Kinzo's plan
and the lock of the gold bar room was jammed while Krauss and Natsuhi were inside. However, the door to the servants' room really was locked at a point after Kanon died and before Krauss and Kyrie entered.
If the door was tampered with, it was not the locking mechanism itself.

She paused, then sighed. "I suppose it would be graceful to cede the point as I have dodged around it several times now. As many blues have suggested, something was jammed in the keyholes to prevent the key from fitting properly."


Her eyes narrowed, and she gave a predatory grin. "I give you one warning, as it has been a while since the rules were stated. Only one attempt at naming the culprit per player will be allowed. You name Jessica as a culprit, then? You know how she could have performed all murders? Or, if you're not sure, I'll let you retract that blue."
>> No. 21150 edit
First of all I'm sorry but...


That makes things a LOT more confusing then... if the killer had the Master Key, why not use it? Some weird double bluff? Still, there had to be a reason why they didn't use the key, even if they had it...

Also, thank you for the warning. You're right, it was a while, and I had forgotten. I retract my accusation of Jessica at this time, as I am not sure. Especially with this new information. Argh, it might end up being me that keeps track of the location of all the Master Keys, but I'd really rather not. Though, even if it complicates how Nanjo was killed, it's still useful information. After all, if "the culprit actually had access to a master key at the time of Nanjo's murder", then the inverse is "those who did not have access to a master key at that time can't be the culprit."

I just... don't know which people that would be at the time.
>> No. 21151 edit
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Alright, let’s summarize all the informations we have on Kinzo’s murder.
Kinzo was alive when everyone left the parlor the first time, and dead when Battler, Genji and Shannon discovered his body. He was alone in the parlor when he died and he didn’t died from a poison effect, neither in a gory way for it would be impossible for the culprit to hide a deadly wound.
Also, the death cannot be a natural one such as a heart attack caused by illness, as specified by the following red:
All deaths in this were intentional.
Even if a suicide would works within the definition of “intentional”, we know that it was no plan of Kinzo to die (not realistically anyway...).
Finally we know that Kinzo shot one bullet from the riffle, and this bullet wasn’t the cause of the broken window, most likely because this shot was a blank bullet.

The perfect closed room. The culprit wasn’t in the room when Kinzo died, neither is there a possibility that they got Kinzo from outside of the room with a ranged weapon for the gory factor (and
Kinzo was not shot). Yet, the culprit knew that Kinzo would be dead when they went outside with their whole equipement to broke the parlor’s window properly.
Once out of the parlor with everyone, the culprit cannot do anything anymore on Kinzo or on the parlor. So the conclusion we can draw from that, is that the culprit did something before to leave this room. Though, that would mean the culprit knew that Kinzo would stay in the parlor alone beforehand.
This fact, coupled with the method I think the culprit used, will prove that they knew Kinzo’s plan before the gathering in the parlor.

Before the explanation to be sound, it is necessary to remind that “Gohda died by the stake before Kinzo died”, “no stakes were removed from the study for Kinzo's plan. The culprit is the only one who removed a stake from the study during the course of the evening” and “Kinzo possessed his study key the entire time he was alive”
From those reds I state that:
- The culprit had an access to Kinzo’s study before Gohda’s murder, thus before Kinzo’s murder, thus before the gathering in the parlor as the culprit's trick to kill Kinzo has been prepared before the said gathering.
- Kinzo’s key wasn’t used by the culprit to open the study.
- Once out of the study, the culprit knew Kinzo’s plan and began to put their own plan in motion.

Regarding the study matter, the two only options available are Genji’s key and the secret passage. I already explained that, would the secret passage been known by the culprit, they surely would have used it to move Kinzo’s corpse which has been refuted in red. So in default of another option, the culprit must have used Genji’s key to enter Kinzo’s study.

Anyway, before the gathering in the parlor, the culprit went to the kitchen to kill Gohda with a stake they took in Kinzo’s study, then they hid his big body in the refrigerator. In the kitchen, waiting to be brought with the service cart, the black box containing the riffle. The culprit tempered with this black box in such way that it will contain the deadly mechanism that will kill Kinzo.
About this deadly mechanism I cannot give its exact nature, though I can imagine something like an object with a certain electrical charge placed underneath the black velvet under the riffle. The said object would be joined with the riffle, and thus, would electrocute anyone who would touch the riffle.
It was a kind of a bet from the culprit because, if someone would have touch the gun during the gathering, their plan would have failed.
Luckily enough for them, nobody touched the gun before everyone left Kinzo alone in the parlor.
Also, I believe that the loud bang heard just after that everyone left the parlor, during Battler’s speech, wasn’t the thunder but Kinzo who took the gun and reflexively shot with it while he was receiving the electrical discharge (which might have surprised the culprit themselve as I don’t think pulling the trigger was necessary to receive the discharge). He died around this time certainly from a heart attack. Later on the culprit would come, broke the window in the specific way aforementioned, then removed the deadly device from the scene and took Kinzo’s ring.
>> No. 21152 edit
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Beatrice appeared to regain some of her composure. "Your logic seems sound. Yes, quite a solid base." She cackled. "So let's sweep it out from under you!"

"Kinzo did not die as a result of some sort of trap mechanism X!"

"The culprit did not use Genji's key to get into Kinzo's study!"

"And finally, since you seem to think you're closing in on a basic idea of how Kinzo died...Kinzo's cause of death was asphyxiation! How does all that strike your theories, detective?"
>> No. 21153 edit
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This is a really short one, because I have a small idea, based on a previous theory; Kinzo shot the gun next to himself to knock himself out. Then, while he was knocked out, someone came in and lodged something into his mouth before leaving the room to do something else. What they did doesn't matter, but the fact that while they left the room, Kinzo was still alive. While the killer was gone, that was when Kinzo died, asphyxiating. The killer later came back, removed what suffocated Kinzo, and then left.

After all, the red of "Kinzo was alone in the parlor when he died" doesn't remove the possibility of Kinzo not being alone before and after dying, just the moment of death.

Last edited at 18/02/09(Fri)20:14:58
>> No. 21154 edit
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"Oh, bravo!" The witch applauded. "That...actually gets around my red quite handily, doesn't it? Bravo indeed..."

She smirked. "However, I fear it is not to be. The killer did not place anything in Kinzo's mouth, and Kinzo did not knock himself out."
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