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File 134170141526.jpg - (45.75KB , 696x236 , Umineko_no_Naku_Koro_ni_logo.jpg )
7708 No. 7708 edit
This thread has been created to talk about our beloved ( For most ) Umineko.
After much discussion following KnownoMore's infamous videos countering the silly "official" Shkannontrice explanation, it seems that we are in need of a battlefield to clear our mind and settle this all.

Knowledge of the original novel is of course needed, so George-san, you're out, sorry !

I, your host, am of course against this silly theory which doesn't make any sense, as such I will, helped by the VN red truths, try to prove how this theory is impossible.
Obviously, what is said in red is the truth.
Your goal will be to prove the Shkannontrice theory, but if you want to go against it I suppose there's no harm, just don't go saying nonsense. Of course anon-kun is forced to go with it ~

Oh, and for those of you who don't know what the Shkannontrice theory is, it's the belief that the culprit is the servant Yasu, which has two personnalities : Shannon and Kanon. Silly, right ~?
If you still don't get it just google it.


Well, I think we can cut right into the cake, right ? Let's begin !
This is from EP3, 1st twilight :

6 people: Kinzo, Genji, Shannon, Kanon, Gohda, and Kumasawa are dead!

From EP6 we have this red truth :

Three people--in other words, three bodies--went in or out.

Doesn't it explicitly tells us that 1 people = 1 body ? Then how do you explain that Shannon and Kanon are the same person when they are counted in a group of 6 person, which is to say, 6 bodies ?

It's time /seacats/ ! Go all out and BREAK THIS ! I AM WAITING FOR IT ! *ahaha.wav*
Expand all images
>> No. 7709 edit
File 131259975416.png - (151.34KB , 606x480 , wdk_niramub2.png )
7709
>>7708
Kinzo has a body.
Genji has a body.
Shannon has a body.
Kanon has a body.
Gohda has a body.
Kumasawa has a body.

That adds up to six bodies. You just can't see all six bodies at once due to Shkanon.

>> No. 7710 edit
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7710
>>7709
What nonsense. No matter how many owners an item has, that item remains as one. If it weren't so, there would be no need for a witch to make the endless.
>> No. 7711 edit
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7711
Tch. I forgot something. Since I can only quote the original red truth, you could simply throw things like "Kumasawa is a ghost" to get through the red truths. As such, if you make this sort of claim you will need to fulfill Knox's 8th :
It is forbidden for the case to be resolved with clues that are not presented.

Also, they need to pass the realm of reality and make Shkanon a plausible theory. This is a mystery after all, not anti-fantasy.

>>7709
I think you missed the point.
With the red truth up there, we know that 6 peoples, or bodies, are dead, those 6 are :
Kanon, Shannon, Kumasawa, Kinzo, Genji and Gohda.
Hence, these 6 peoples have bodies, because of the definition of person in red up there.
How can Shkannon exist then ? You even said that Shannon and Kanon each have a body. Doesn't that fundamentally go against Shkannontirice ?
>> No. 7712 edit
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7712
>>7711
No, I got the point. Kanon and Shannon have different bodies, but they each have a body.

You can't say in red that Kanon doesn't have a body. You also can't say that Shannon doesn't have a body. They share the same body.

6 people: Kinzo, Genji, Shannon, Kanon, Gohda, and Kumasawa are dead!

People = Bodies

6 bodies: Kinzo, Genji, Shannon, Kanon, Gohda, and Kumasawa are dead!

In other words, let me make it even clearer:

6 bodies: the body of Kinzo, the body of Genji, the body of Shannon, the body of Kanon, the body of Gohda, and the body of Kumasawa are dead!

The body of Shannon, Yasu, is dead.
The body of Kanon, Yasu, is dead.
There are no contradictions with this.


The rest of the murders were done by Eva.
>> No. 7713 edit
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7713
>>7710
Oh, and I do see your point, but I'll wait for Squitcher to address that before I write anything up.
>> No. 7714 edit
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7714
>>7712
Do I need to repeat myself? The number of bodies still only adds up to five.
>> No. 7715 edit
File 134170570626.png - (120.42KB , 426x480 , bea_defa2.png )
7715
>>7713
And why is that? This game is open for more than just two opponents. I am joining one side, and I expect the other side to deal with my arguments promptly, regardless of my teammates. I am not patient, you see. My arguments do not rest on my teammates, and sometimes they may disagree with them. Our side is defined only as the stance we take on one particular point.
>> No. 7716 edit
File 131916917453.jpg - (17.22KB , 134x192 , 268527.jpg )
7716
Because it is never truly stated that Yasu is a guy or girl we can assume that when in the female personalities that they use pads or some sort of fake breasts.
Since DID is considered separate personalities completely the female ones have come to consider that part of the disguise an actual part of their own body, and thus count as two separate bodies. One for the female and one for the male.

>> No. 7717 edit
File 134170606928.png - (134.66KB , 406x480 , bea_akuwaraib1.png )
7717
>>7713
Unfortunately for you, goat-kun is right. The body count would only be 5. You're basically saying that Yasu's bodies count for 2 bodies, or is dead twice, which is silly.

>>7715
I guess this is one way of seeing things. Just bear in mind that I'm the Master here ~
>> No. 7718 edit
File 132668987457.png - (142.63KB , 434x480 , wdk_komarua1.png )
7718
>>7714
>>7715
Okay, I'll go ahead and discuss this, then.

That's right, there are only 5 bodies. But it's also 6 bodies.

Ryu is just doing some crazy wordplay which makes it out to be 6 instead of 5. I'm not endorsing this as a GOOD solution, but it is the solution as I see it.

Meaning that "Kanon's body" and "Shannon's body" are treated as two separate things even though they are essentially the same. It's like 1 + 1 = 2. Yasu's body + Yasu's body = 2 Yasu bodies.

I'm not sure how else to explain it, as it's kind of hard to explain. It's as you said, no matter how many owners an item has, it's still one item. But the trick in the wordplay makes it seem as if there are more, which is a pretty dirty trick in my opinion.
>> No. 7719 edit
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7719
A game? How quaint. Do you have the Japanese corresponding to those red truths?
>> No. 7721 edit
File 134170660124.png - (121.99KB , 426x480 , bea_majimea3.png )
7721
>>7716
Ridiculous. And most undignified for one others would finger as the witch Beatrice, ruler of Rokkenjima's night.

Shannon does not wear pads.

According to a certain source of questionable honestly, Battler would discover such a charade if he were allowed to touch Shannon's breasts, and so in her close encounter with this fate, Shannon resigned herself to the roulette. If this were so, then why would George, who is described as feeling Shannon's breasts at a point, continue to fall for such a childish trick?

Men can only be satisfied by flesh, and that is all they will ever desire from what they call love. How vulgar and base.

Would you allow this kind of mockery of the red for any other kind of fanciful theory other than the one you purport? It seems to me unnecessary. Everything can be solved with perfect elegance, without ever treating the truth with such frivolity.
>> No. 7722 edit
Can we get the context of this red? I don't remember it.

Three people--in other words, three bodies--went in or out.
>> No. 7723 edit
File 134170690667.png - (121.22KB , 426x480 , bea_majimea4.png )
7723
>>7718
A dirty trick it is. Nonsense it is. So why do pick it up and fling it on the writer? Dirt should remain beneath our feet, unworthy of our notice.

A false solution is being intentionally heralded as truth, in order to pull the wool over the eyes of those who will not think.

Do not start with the premise that this must be true and twist all logic, reason and fact to fit with it.
>> No. 7724 edit
>>7716
>>7718
How cute, you're basically making the same silly argument ~
I won't accept this answer of course, a body is a body, if a person disguise him/herself and consider the disguise as a body, it still doesn't make it a proper body.
Of course, the definition of body isn't stated in red so you can loophole as you want, but there's this one thing :
What is written in red is the truth
If you're saying that the definition of bodies on an absolute truth scale depends on the mind of a person. Then show me hints. Otherwise it's rejected.

>>7719
Ah, I didn't think of that. Unfortunately I don't speak japanese. If you do have them and can translate them, would you mind backing me up if they can be a source of problem ? Thank you ~
>> No. 7725 edit
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7725
>>7722
The context is Battler's closed room wherein Kanon aided in his escape. It was a challenge to Erika, and a solution to the logic error she trapped him in. Three people - Kanon, Erika and Battler, went in or out of this room. This is confirmed in red to be equivalent to three bodies doing the same. As even a human would reasonably assume.
>> No. 7726 edit
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7726
>>7722
It refers to the moment of the logic error of EP6.

I'm copypasting it :
[Confirming definition. Can I accept 'three people' to mean to the number of bodies? You're saying that three bodies went in or out of the room, right?] Of course. Three people--in other words, three bodies--went in or out. Only you and Kanon entered, and only Battler left. It has already been said in red that all people can only use their own names. Therefore, the names Erika, Battler, and Kanon can only be used by those people.

>>7721
Ah, this is pretty interesting. I think KnownoMore mentioned it in his video, apparently Ryukishi said in an interview that if Battler had touched Shannon's chest, he would have found out that she wore pads.
George is an inexperienced fatass, so it's no surprise he wouldn't find out.
Well it's again Ryukishi screwing with us.

Oh, and please pick usernames, I can't tell apart goats.
>> No. 7727 edit
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7727
それは即ち、3人のことである [Request: 'This refers to three people]
I acknowledge it. It refers to three people: you, Battler, and Kanon.

This is the only relevant piece of the Japanese I have at hand. It would be bothersome to dig up the rest, and most likely not at all contribute to discussion, but I might do it.
>> No. 7728 edit
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7728
Oh, what do we have here?

“私の入室からロジックエラー時まで、私と戦人と嘉音以外に、入退室した者は存在しない” [Request: 'From the time I entered the room to the time of the logic error, Battler, Kanon, and I were the only ones who entered or exited the room.']
認めようぞ。 そなたの入室からロジックエラー時まで、客室を出入りしたのは、そなたと戦人と嘉音のみだ[I acknowledge it. From the time you entered the room to the time of the logic error, you, Battler, and Kanon were the only ones who went in or out of the guest room.]

“それは即ち、3人のことである”。[Request: 'This refers to three people.']
認めようぞ。 そなたと戦人と嘉音で、3人である。 [I acknowledge it. It refers to three people: you, Battler, and Kanon.]

の3人の定義は体の数に等しいと考えていい? 3体が出入りをしたってことですよね?[Confirming definition. Can I accept 'three people' to mean to the number of bodies? You're saying that three bodies went in or out of the room, right?]
無論だ。 3人、即ち3体が出入りした。 そなたと嘉音は入ったのみ、戦人は出たのみ。 全ての名は本人以外に名乗れないと赤き真実ですでに語っている。 よって、ヱリカ、戦人、嘉音の名はいずれも、本人にしか名乗れぬのだ。[Of course. Three people--in other words, three bodies--went in or out. Only you and Kanon entered, and only Battler left. It has already been said in red that all people can only use their own names. Therefore, the names Erika, Battler, and Kanon can only be used by those people.]
>> No. 7729 edit
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7729
>>7727
>>7728
This is most useful. Is it your own traduction ? It seems awfully close to Witch-Hunt's.
Oh and is the traduction reliable ?
>> No. 7730 edit
>>7721
A blue for a blue just bounces you know.
In Ep2 Jessica and Shannon are talking about how far George and her have gone, which she reveals that they even stayed in separate rooms.

I forget in which part it describes George touching her breasts, if you can I'd like to find it. Although I'd probably just propose it can be misconstrued in many ways and it could mean any fleshy part.

Besides, the same could be said for a strap to flatten the breasts. ie for Kanon in the case that Yasu is actually a girl.

>>7724
Yeah, gonna be honest here, dont have a well thought out answer for this part due to my short term memory, regardless I'll present a red without thinking it through.

That one at the very end of episode six:
I am the visitor, the 18th human on Rokkenjima!!
[......Sorry, but...] Even if you do join us-
There are 17 people.


So human=/people=bodies. One word we think could mean the same thing can be completely different, thus an interpretation of the game master themselves. I'm not going to go as far as say all the red is an interpretation of the gamemaster and therefore fake, but wordplay is an inevitable rot.
>> No. 7731 edit
>>7728
You know, now that I remember this context. Wasn't this proven with shkanon a long time ago?
>> No. 7732 edit
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7732
各使用人が1本ずつで5本だ[There are five, one for each servant.](master keys)
金蔵、源次、紗音、嘉音、郷田、熊沢の6人は死亡している![6 people: Kinzo, Genji, Shannon, Kanon, Gohda, and Kumasawa are dead!]

A pleasant scene, you know. One of my favorites.

>>7729
It is Witch-Hunt's translation. There is no need to introduce another translation to confuse things. The purpose was only to make available the original text.
>> No. 7733 edit
>>7726
How ironic, trying to use EP6 red to deny Shkanon on these days.

You know, strongest red evidence of Shkanon is that closed room. Do you know why Erika lost to it? Because she couldn't accept it, or rather, never though of it.
If you want to deny it, first answer that one
>> No. 7734 edit
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7734
>>7730
I think this is an entirely different matter. The word "human" isn't even mentioned in the problem I told. Well it's still an intriguing mystery in itself.

>>7732
I see. I assumed that since some people actually have said that WH's translation did have some faults. Thank you anyway.

>>7733
I have a solution for that. If you would mind properly posting the problem I'll gladly solve it. I'm too tired to search everything tonight.
>> No. 7735 edit
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7735
>>7730
>>7730
>>7731
Naturally, a blue cannot deny a blue. However, in this game we're playing, neither can a red. For I know the other side will twist the red to mean whatever they please, and put the blame on the one who wrote it, not on themselves for interpreting it.

Given the size of the breasts as always depicted and as described as Battler, I fail to see how the real thing could be hidden with a trap. Most painful. The scene in question is the first novel's Curtain-Rise on the Tragedy, towards the end. The anime also features the scene at 10:32 in episode two. Please confirm for yourself.

>>7733
I am fully prepared to offer a simple explanation for that trivial closed room of Battler's, along with settling the meaning of the final red statements that end the duel and destroy Erika.
>> No. 7736 edit
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7736
Shkannontrice assumes (no less than) three personalities: Shannon, Kanon, and Teatrice.

Most, if not all, of the arguments are going to be variations of how the EP6 definition doesn't apply to the EP3 use of the term. Here's my input: considering the context, it seems like the EP6 red was simply being reworded to appease Erika, rather than defining "people" for all instances of the term's usage. In other words, the red is a confirmation of how the word "bodies" could have been used in place of "people" in the preceding red referring to three people. Therefore, no contradictions.
>> No. 7737 edit
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7737
Now then! The final closed room.

Erika has gathered all the people on the island save for the victims of the first twilight in the two adjacent rooms, correct? At this point in time, after exiting one of the rooms herself, she confirms with Battler that their locations are as she believes. And only after this point does she seal the rooms. This takes time. Indeed, the rooms are completely sealed for the remainder of the game once she sealed them, but by the time they were sealed, Kanon had already escaped! This leaves no contradictions. Please confirm for yourselves.

As for the final red which has a fatal effect on Erika, it is foolish to assume its meaning applies to some shuffling of bodies and personalities rather than Erika herself. Erika washed up on the island, dead. The final red tells her that even if she had be found and welcomed as the 18th human on Rokkenjima, she wouldn't increase the head count, due to her fate. Therefore, the fifth and sixth novels, where she is indeed alive, are scenarios that are not reconcilable with the truth. Thus, the piece of Erika is tossed aside.
>> No. 7739 edit
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7739
>>7736
This is actually a theory I can't deny. Though I do dislike the fact that it basically relies on Ryukishi making a continuity error.

But if it's to be accepted, then people also refers to personalities ? It doesn't go that well.

This thread is getting kinda chaotic. It's probably my fault for not having set a specific way for things to go.
Well I'm too tired right now so I can't squat, but tomorrow I'll make it a proper battle, we'll start with EP3 and try to discuss the why who and howdunnit from the 1st to 10th twilight, along with the various mysteries alongside it.
Well I'm going to sleep, I'll make the starting post after I wake up tomorrow. Good night.
>> No. 7740 edit
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7740
>>7736
>voyager posting on /gameboard/


>>7735
>DEEN is proof
Well anyway, in regards to the VN part, I assuming you meant the part near the middle, because afterwards it only talks about the witch.
All George really says is that he gives the ring to Shannon, nothing of the sort implies he did anything sexual let along touch anything part of her besides her hand when putting on the ring.
>> No. 7741 edit
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7741
>>7736
That kind of interpretation would be necessary to this way of seeing things. I remember there was a time where the one red from that skirmish was enough to put to rest any silliness. It was only after a large amount of circumstantial evidence that does not hold under scrutiny that people began to readdress and reinterpret that red, and others like it. That supposed evidence is nothing more than a red herring, the most pervasive and deceptive of in the tale.
>> No. 7742 edit
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7742
>>7740
It seems I got the scene wrong. I meant it was towards the end of "The Legend of the Gold." Where all the cousins are making their way back to the guest house. The same scene is mirrored in the anime, I am only presenting it as an alternative source of the same event.
>> No. 7743 edit
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7743
>>7737
>implying that hasn't been solved
>> No. 7744 edit
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7744
>>7743
Most nostalgic. And utter nonsense, all of it.

We all know who to thank.
>> No. 7745 edit
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7745
>>7744
>>7742
Nostalgic indeed.
Regarding breasts, I can't believe i forgot about that part. Still, the Japanese have some good pads, so some non skin to skin is not guarantee to give her away. Of course that is rather pushing it.

I'd rather go with Yasu is actually a girl, and the whole strap side of the theory regarding fake breasts.
>> No. 7746 edit
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7746
>>7745
Are you aware of Battler's tastes? Given their size in all depictions I can think of, and Battler's lust and admiring of Shannon when he returns after six years, which drives him into an animal state, I think it is safe to say that Shannon's chest cannot be concealed with straps.

As for pads, that same questionable source can be quoted saying that if Battler had felt them, even clothed as they were, it would have been over. Yet he presents her fiancée, George, as experiencing the same contact.

Furthermore, if they were pads, was Shannon progressively upgrading them so that they be noticed by her masters, colleagues, fiancée, and other visitors to the island would not notice? Most amusing, and most unlikely.
>> No. 7747 edit
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7747
>>7746
You never know until you try.
Besides, this is DEEP DID we are taking about.
>> No. 7749 edit
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7749
>>7747
It is. And readers show no respect for any kind of sense when they reconcile the facts, and what is plausible, with the truth as they are told it. The witch's illusion has created an independent legion of goats who serve to safeguard the truth unknowingly.

I believe the solution cannot be found without thinking. And the solution would never be stated plainly, as that same source has supposedly gone on to do multiple times with varying degrees of blatantness. The solution as it is widely regarded does not require thinking. Nobody could read the novel and claim they did not get the impression that this solution was being presented. People rarely discuss the truth anymore, because they consider the matter settled. But if the solution was not something so obvious or so easy, as it has always been held by the author to be, why would this ever be the case?

Only the conclusion the trickster wants you to arrive at is easy. This is a game between you and them, and they aren't going to throw it.
>> No. 7750 edit
>>7749
For the theory to arise in the first place someone must have thought it was apparent.

If shkanon really isn't the case then what? Solve the true answer and Ryukishi will praise you with a 'rei' like game? He seemed rather set on closing the catbox in the last EP.

There are the people who accept the catbox, accept shkanon, dismiss shkanon, and a mixture of each. Simply because the middle opinion exists, does this make a catbox.

And at this point I forgot how I was going to end this post with something actually meaningful. Something about different views of each side or something, then a subject that actually revolved around the story and not the readers/author topics... whatever.
>> No. 7751 edit
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7751
>>7750
I don't think that he would ever plainly state the answer. The readers may do what they will, but it will have no impact.

If you take his word absolutely, there is no catbox, because any chance of that was destroyed by very direct statements about what the truth is. I believe that contradicts with his mindset towards the game, and so it is only another move meant to deceive his opponent. I recall once he expressed that Erika is not a bad person, but simply misunderstood because she does not pick her words carefully. In installment he released following that statement, where Piece-Erika ruthlessly murders at least six people, and Meta-Erika sets a trap to eternally torment Battler and steal him from his love. Simply misunderstood. It gives precedent to the idea that he is not beyond lying about the true nature of his work in interviews, wouldn't you say?

As for the nature of the catbox itself, I don't think it allows for simultaneous truths. There is one truth, to be sure. But if we were to ever know it with absolute certainty, it would be because we have reached an answer after much deliberation that is sound in the face of all evidence, and does not insult a human's idea of what is and what is not plausible or even possible. It would not be handed to us on a silver platter as has supposedly occurred.
>> No. 7752 edit
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7752
>>7750
I don't think that he would ever plainly state the answer. The readers may do what they will, but it will have no impact.

If you take his word absolutely, there is no catbox, because any chance of that was destroyed by very direct statements about what the truth is. I believe that contradicts with his mindset towards the game, and so it is only another move meant to deceive his opponent. I recall once he expressed that Erika is not a bad person, but simply misunderstood because she does not pick her words carefully. In the installment he released following that statement, Piece-Erika ruthlessly murders at least six people, while Meta-Erika sets a trap to eternally torment Battler and steal him from his love. Simply misunderstood. It gives precedent to the idea that he is not beyond lying about the true nature of his work in interviews, wouldn't you say?

As for the nature of the catbox itself, I don't think it allows for simultaneous truths. There is one truth, to be sure. But if we were to ever know it with absolute certainty, it would be because we have reached an answer after much deliberation that is sound in the face of all evidence, and does not insult a human's idea of what is and what is not plausible or even possible. It would not be handed to us on a silver platter as has supposedly occurred.
>> No. 7753 edit
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7753
>>7751
>>7752
Hmm. Ignore the first post, I was making corrections.
>> No. 7754 edit
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7754
>>7753
Forget the closed room mysteries for a second, and simply read the story. What kind of sense would Chiru make if Shkanon isn't the solution? Beatrice's death in EP5? The Love Trial in EP6? Yasu in EP7? Beatrice, Shannon, and Kanon in EP8? There are numerous references to Shkanon in Chiru, so why else would they be there unless that was the truth?
>> No. 7755 edit
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7755
>>7754
To deceive.
>> No. 7756 edit
>>7755
I bet Ryucakes had a hard time writing Chiru after BT deceased.
>> No. 7757 edit
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7757
>>7755
If this isn't Shkanon, I don't know what is.
>> No. 7759 edit
File 134171762269.png - (121.97KB , 426x480 , bea_gamana1.png )
7759
>>7757
Of course I have read episode 8. What do you take me for?

Kanon and Shannon are not witches. The three witches who are one are the three generations of Beatrice, each one contributing to the overall legend that forms Beatrice's rules.

Kanon and Shannon are simply called to be lookouts, as is stated. This is intended to evoke the idea of them all being the same, as are many little jabs throughout episode 6, 7 and 8, but it's nothing more than a red herring.

I believe red statements are more important than little deceptions of this nature, and how much the red is twisted to meet a theory, is a measure of its strength. So I cannot forget about the red or the closed rooms, which have always been a major focus, because of tidbits.
>> No. 7760 edit
>>7759
What about the heart of the story?
Battler said the trick of the closed room in EP6 was rather dirty, but was still allowed by Lambda.
>> No. 7761 edit
File 134170793254.png - (121.16KB , 426x480 , bea_akuwaraia1.png )
7761
>>7760
I believe I have already solved that room neatly, and in a way which resembles the nature of all other closed rooms in the novel.

The statements regarding the nature of the solution relates to how the human audience, easily fooled, will take the solution. The room was constructed in such a way that one solution was implied while a much more plausible solution was hidden. The one that was implied is beyond ridiculous, but it's what the humans would assume to be the case. And so they would begin to complain that the game was not a mystery at all, that is was barely above fantasy. If they however paid attention and had the love for the author required to trust the sportsmanship behind the red and its consistency, they would be able to see that the solution was beautiful.
>> No. 7762 edit
>>7761
Oh my, I lost that part. Could you show me your answer again, please?
>> No. 7763 edit
File 134170711682.png - (120.95KB , 426x480 , bea_iiwakea1.png )
7763
>>7762
I am referring to the solution I presented in this very thread.

>>7737
>> No. 7764 edit
>>7763
Oh man, that surely would have sounded funny one or two years ago.
I don't think that works, I don't have around the reds but, they clearly state the names of the people inside of the rooms. The seals only prove they still don't leave.
>> No. 7765 edit
File 134171997862.png - (122.11KB , 426x480 , bea_futekia1.png )
7765
>>7764
I assure you the explanation is entirely consistent. Erika only seals the rooms after she confirms the locations of everyone. Sealing all rooms instantly is impossible, there would have been a gap in time where someone who was included in the head count could leave their room before it was sealed, so as not to break the seal. There is no red that contradicts this. Please confirm for yourself when you are free to.
>> No. 7767 edit
Let me post the correct reds of that closed room.
>> No. 7768 edit
[Request: 'Hideyoshi, George, Shannon, Kumasawa, and Nanjo are in the next room over!'] Acknowledged.
[It has already been shown that Kinzo no longer exists, so please remove him from the word 'everyone'.] I acknowledge that everyone else is in the cousins' room.
[By the seals on the doors and windows,] the complete sealing of both the cousins' room and the next room over has been GUARANTEED.
We have confirmed that the seals to the guest room are UNDAMAGED. Since the time Lady Erika confirmed Battler's existence, this closed room has been PRESERVED.
>> No. 7769 edit
>>7765
>>7768
So yeah, next theory?
>> No. 7770 edit
File 134172103026.png - (121.10KB , 426x480 , bea_waraia3.png )
7770
>>7768
>[Request: 'Hideyoshi, George, Shannon, Kumasawa, and Nanjo are in the next room over!'] Acknowledged.
>[It has already been shown that Kinzo no longer exists, so please remove him from the word 'everyone'.] I acknowledge that everyone else is in the cousins' room.
Erika confirms the location of everyone. A pity for her that this information becomes useless with the passage of time.

>[By the seals on the doors and windows,] the complete sealing of both the cousins' room and the next room over has been GUARANTEED.
This occurs after Erika confirms the location of everyone. So, like the third-rate detective she is, she first confirms their locations and then seals the rooms. She should have done it the other way around. The Eiserne Jungfrau are shown sealing the rooms. Of course, to humans, they do not exist and cannot be counted as part of the solution. It would be up to Erika to seal these rooms after receiving these location confirmations, which provides ample time for someone to escape the cousin's room. Namely, Kanon.

>We have confirmed that the seals to the guest room are UNDAMAGED. Since the time Lady Erika confirmed Battler's existence, this closed room has been PRESERVED.
This refers to the room Battler is trapped inside, not the rooms in the guest house Erika sealed. It is not relevant, as the solution to this room is much simpler. Kanon took Battler's place, and then was killed by Erika, who had already killed five others. In fact, the meta-world depiction of this scene shows her shooting Kanon's hiding place.
>> No. 7771 edit
>>7770
Sorry, even if your first point was correct: I acknowledge that everyone else is in the cousins' room.
It would still make Kanon stay on the cousin room, as is it supposed for "him" to be.
>> No. 7772 edit
File 134172187532.png - (122.76KB , 426x480 , bea_akuwaraia5.png )
7772
>>7771
You will make me lose my patience. How many times must I explain the order in which these statements are made are important? Kanon was indeed in the cousin's room at the time of that statement. But nothing about the red says that he must stay in the cousin's room for all time.

Erika had Battler confirm the locations of everyone, after she had just exited the rooms herself. Then, and only then, does she seal the rooms. She seals the doors and the windows. How much time do you think that took her? What red denies the possibility that someone left after their location was confirmed, but before she managed to seal their room? The fact that the seals on the rooms are not broken at any point is irrelevant. By the time the seals were in place, the trick had already been performed.

Maybe you should not rely on the red alone when you do not have access to the scene in question? Regarding this scenario, I am an expert.
>> No. 7773 edit
>>7772
Alright, we are still checking that, so I apologize again for the delay. However, even if that joke was possible there's still something important we would need to debate.
If this was the trick, then why didn't Battler escape from the closed room? Lambda talked about it as some kind of terrible torture, yet Battler didn't use such a easy way to escape from the red? Even if he was incompetent he would notice it.
>> No. 7774 edit
File 134170570626.png - (120.42KB , 426x480 , bea_defa2.png )
7774
>>7773
Erika's sealing of the rooms was sprung on him, so it is plausible that he wasn't able to think of this solution in time.

After all, I have taken some time to convince you of this solution, and you are still not convinced.

I don't think it is an issue.
>> No. 7775 edit
>>7774
I will accept he was on a strong condition of stress, but exactly because of that he would be able to see, or at least would have tried it. That's it if it was the the answer.

On the other side, Battler couldn't use that answer, of respect of the Witch, of course.
>> No. 7776 edit
File 134170793254.png - (121.16KB , 426x480 , bea_akuwaraia1.png )
7776
>>7775
I disagree. I don't think Battler even considered those two rooms as sources for a potential savior at the time. He was focused on the people Erika had secretly eliminated.

I see no reason to refute this simple and plausible explanation for such a questionable reason, one that could be argued either way.

I assure you that this solution is entirely possible, and so I can see your insistence that Battler should have realized it only as evidence against what you argue for. After all, this explanation works regardless of whether Kanon and Shannon are the same person. Wouldn't Battler want to use this solution first, before one that supposedly endangered the secret nature of his beloved witch? He should have used this even if Shannon and Kanon were the same.

I am not arguing that the personality shuffle solution to this room is impossible; after all, many supporters of the theory have repeatedly claimed, whether ignorantly or deceptively, that theirs is the only possible solution. All I need to do is solve the room in a satisfactory manner to present an alternative.
>> No. 7777 edit
File 134172623522.png - (6.03KB , 35x45 , cut.png )
7777
7 get.
>> No. 7778 edit
[Edited]
>after all, many supporters of the theory have repeatedly claimed, whether ignorantly or deceptively, that theirs is the only possible solution.
Alright, I chuckled.

About the rest
>He should have used this even if Shannon and Kanon were the same.
So, who's assuming stuff now? So far I have admitted it's "possible", but I have yet not confirmed it myself. In any case, he of course would be able to leave the rooms, but just because it helps your theory it doesn't mean Kanon really did escape from the room as soon Erika leaved. Battler, as the GM freely move the pieces on the gameboard, except from Erika, who is probably the only piece he cannot control. So for this theory of yours to work he must have made Kanon to escape before Erika tape the room. And if that did happen he would be pretty much aware of the position of the pieces in his own game.

------
Also, from small Kinjo reread:

As soon Erika leaves the leaves the room, she enters the metaworld and asks battler to repeat the locations of everyone.

He confirms that "everyone else is in the cousin's room", upon hearing this, Erika shouts for Dlanor and Erika gets Gertrude and Cornelia to seal the two rooms (at the moment she shouts to Dlanor she returns to the gameboard, although Gertrude and Cornelia are present)

Alright, what do this mean? Did Erika actually need to go and place each seal? That would be if the was a normal character, but she still had the aid of Dlannor and the rest. My argument here will be as it follows: "Even if Battler was a complete retard and he enjoyed the logic error, the game itself strongly suggest the seals were placed immediately, as if magic was used. There's nothing wrong with this, because the story itself was easy to mold: some time later, Erika allowed Battler to rewrite a part of the plot, but he refused."
>> No. 7779 edit
File 134170422282.png - (122.74KB , 426x480 , bea_futekia2.png )
7779
>>7778
I allow for pieces to be moved retroactively as long as their actions do not contradict the statements that have already been made. After all, the solution that you are supporting supposes the same thing occurred.

I will not however acknowledge an argument where magic is actually involved in the solution of the gameboard. Such an explanation is always discarded by humans. The very idea of a logic error operates under the assumption that everything must be achieved by human means. Otherwise, a logic error is only proof of magic.

From a human perspective, any actions of the Eiserne Jungfrau cannot be taken at face value. They must be representative of actions taken by a human or humans, namely Erika. She needed to go and place each seal.
>> No. 7780 edit
File 134171071989.png - (120.77KB , 426x480 , bea_waraia2.png )
7780
So, if your solution is to be "this was achieved by magic," I will not contradict you. I welcome it. But at that point our discussion will be over.

I am acting under the assumption that your side will not allow for magic solutions.
>> No. 7781 edit
File 131415699846.png - (82.57KB , 320x469 , ros_aserua1.png )
7781
>>7778
>Alright, what do this mean? Did Erika actually need to go and place each seal? That would be if the was a normal character, but she still had the aid of Dlannor and the rest. My argument here will be as it follows: "Even if Battler was a complete retard and he enjoyed the logic error, the game itself strongly suggest the seals were placed immediately, as if magic was used. There's nothing wrong with this, because the story itself was easy to mold: some time later, Erika allowed Battler to rewrite a part of the plot, but he refused."

This exactly. Time is irrelevant, we are supposed to assume that the second Erika says that the rooms are sealed, maybe not with a 'physically seal' but an agreement. Between Erika the player and Battler the GM, that from that moment the rooms were sealed.

To assume Ryu is playing a cruel trick and we are supposed to think about how long it would take Erika to place the seals is silly.

For such a trick there should be a hint explaining how long exactly it would take Erika to place a seal, and scale the windows.

So source of that information. "How long does it take Erika to seal a window?"

Provide a passage in any game that would explain how long this would take.
>> No. 7782 edit
File 134170422282.png - (122.74KB , 426x480 , bea_futekia2.png )
7782
>>7781
Erika was previously granted the right to seal a few rooms with tape. The same sort she had used in episode 5. It is not a magical seal. The same tape is even referenced with the red.

What I view as silly is the alternate solution. That Shannon and Kanon are the same person, that the window was used as an escape method even though this was 'forbidden' as a blue truth via the red, that Shannon then switched her personality to Kanon, entered the room, allowed Battler to escape, set the chain, and then switched back to her Kanon personality.

Compared to that, it is not silly that Erika would have to take at least a few minutes to seal the rooms physically, both the doors and the windows, regardless of what the magical presentation of the sealing is. The actual time involved is irrelevant, as long as there is enough time for Kanon to leave the window of the room he is inside before Erika can scale the outside wall and seal that window. It would not even take him half a minute.
>> No. 7783 edit
File 131871657761.png - (78.96KB , 320x467 , ros_nayamua1.png )
7783
>>7782
That is not a good enough clue in my opinion.

Also I'm not saying that she didn't seal the rooms with a tape seal. I'm saying that before she made the seal, when she spoke those words Battler in essence agreed that the seals existed before she placed them.

And Ryu isn't that great at hiding his answers. Higurashi was obvious, Okami was easy to figure out, so Umineko's answer being relatively easy to guess at, aka Shkannon, makes sense.

Anyway didn't Ryu himself admit Shakannon was the answer pretty much.
>> No. 7784 edit
File 134170793254.png - (121.16KB , 426x480 , bea_akuwaraia1.png )
7784
>>7783
It is a good enough clue in my opinion. By this point, you should already know the pattern of closed rooms being perfectly closed, but at the wrong time. I could even argue that the presented order of events with Erika first asking for locations and sealing the rooms after the fact is evidence enough. I am afraid this is not one of your gameboards, so you will not be the arbitrator of what and what is and what is not a clue. Nor will I, of course. There are elements of the supposed truth that are exponentially shakier in their evidence, in any case.

Battler allowing the seals to exist before they are placed is magic. For humans, it does not make sense, as Erika would have broken those very seals by exiting the room she was in. Furthermore, Erika did not choose the two rooms to isolate the survivors in. That decision was left up to other pieces, so Erika would not know to seal them beforehand, were that even possible. She would also have motivation to avoid letting the others know she had placed the seals, as one group is supposed to believe she is with the other, and vice versa.

>Anyway didn't Ryu himself admit Shakannon was the answer pretty much.
This contradicts his earlier statements that he would never give away the answer in such a blatant manner. I cannot trust his interviews as a source considering what he has said about Erika was disproved in the most violent way possible.
>> No. 7785 edit
File 129647147164.png - (79.80KB , 320x468 , ros_defa1.png )
7785
>>7784
Those pieces wouldn't fly by what I've been taught about mysteries is all. But whatever.

That is not what I meant. I meant when Erika asked about the locations and asked Dlanor to seal the rooms. She was in the hallway at that time, not in the room. Thus she does not need to break the agreement to seal the rooms physically.

>This contradicts his earlier statements that he would never give away the answer in such a blatant manner. I cannot trust his interviews as a source considering what he has said about Erika was disproved in the most violent way possible.

Funny, because I believe that Erika isn't evil either.
>> No. 7786 edit
File 131240103776.png - (84.98KB , 291x478 , ka2_fumana66.png )
7786
>>7780
But is it really magic? The fight against the witch was already over at that time. Actually, didn't Battler rewrite the story so the tape Erika found could be used? He changed a fact using "magic". We would need to argue about what was possible on that game.

Aside from that I have only other two points to argue:

The one I mentioned before, just because we didn't think of that "possibility" before it doesn't mean the GM wouldn't have use it himself to escape from that terrible end. However that doesn't deny your theory.

And the second one, as Rin pointed: Umineko itself has no sense without Shkanontrice. I would have liked to be able to deny this possibility, but it seems I can't. I wonder, were you aware of this two years ago?
>> No. 7787 edit
File 134171272398.png - (121.66KB , 426x480 , bea_majimea1.png )
7787
>>7785
You mean that Erika was actually sealing the rooms while she was still depicted in the hallway and asking for location confirmations. I cannot deny that is possible. Nor do I need to. My solution is equally possible, and it makes a great deal more sense. If an alternate solution to this closed room really is as impossible as is often claimed, there should be irrefutable evidence that denies my theory. Indeed, it is absolutely pointless to argue for you to argue for additional possibilities, because it can only be your side's advantage to restore the status quo by allowing for only one possible solution, which is your own.

I don't much want to hear your views on why someone who could methodically and premeditatedly decapitate four living adults and a child is merely misunderstood and in need of more discretion with their words.
>> No. 7789 edit
File 134170422282.png - (122.74KB , 426x480 , bea_futekia2.png )
7789
>>7786
>But is it really magic? The fight against the witch was already over at that time. Actually, didn't Battler rewrite the story so the tape Erika found could be used? He changed a fact using "magic". We would need to argue about what was possible on that game.
I disagree. The human side demands a story that remains consistent with their own understanding of reality. The way in which the story is retroactively formed is irrelevant, as long as it can follow human logic from beginning to end. If it cannot, that is a logic error.

It was fairly easy to allow the argument to center on the red two years ago. After all, I was the one providing it. From scenes nobody else had read.
>> No. 7790 edit
File 130841902997.png - (89.42KB , 291x478 , kan_waraia123.png )
7790
>>7789
At that time there was no other way to argue it. EP5 trick made it Shkanon look unlikely.
Do you have anything to argue to my second point?
>> No. 7791 edit
File 134170660124.png - (121.99KB , 426x480 , bea_majimea3.png )
7791
>>7790
I see no need - it doesn't deny my theory. As you said yourself. However, I will say that this is just another way of suggesting that my solution is somehow impossible, because if it was possible, Battler would have thought of it. Or so is your claim.

I would suggest that instead of claiming that, you should demonstrate why it is impossible. I believe I have presented a solution without any trickery regarding interpretation of the truth. A clean and elegant one. And, that not only is the alternative not better than magic, but magic is actually being used as an attempt to deny me.
>> No. 7792 edit
File 130826654858.png - (84.84KB , 291x478 , ka2_nayamua3.png )
7792
>>7791
We would need to assign rules to this game, then.
If the point was to prove the the possibility of other way to escape from that closed room, then you have won already. I really can't deny it right now, I see it unlikely, and actually, not elegant at all. But I will accept the current theory for that room is also unelegant, and it relies on wordplay (as almost everything, in Umineko)

So yeah, How fitting for Beatrice to break the illusion formed by Erika two years ago. I wonder, how does it feel?
>> No. 7793 edit
File 134173501540.png - (120.51KB , 426x480 , bea_nayamua1.png )
7793
>>7792
I disagree. It is most elegant because it is so simple and consistent. It is far better than what you are forced to argue on the other side.

I don't feel anything in particular.
>> No. 7794 edit
File 131240103776.png - (84.98KB , 291x478 , ka2_fumana66.png )
7794
>>7793
I never said it wasn't more elegant, but it totally throws to the trash everything that was foreshadowed on that episode. It's simpler, but it lacks substance. It totally doesn't feel like something Ryucakes would use. But I will accept it, it's possible.

It won't still change the fact how hinted and how the whole story flows about "Yasu & friends", however I congratulate you again, no one, not even Meta thought of this possibility at that time.

About the latter, well I apologize if it was rude, but it seemed as if you planned to start this argument from a long time ago.
>> No. 7795 edit
File 134173565456.png - (122.69KB , 426x480 , bea_majimea2.png )
7795
>>7794
And why do you suppose that?
>> No. 7796 edit
File 131810671345.png - (50.17KB , 291x478 , kan_defa22.png )
7796
>>7795
Well, this whole situation it's really ironic. You are posting as "goat" using Beatrice sprites, fighting against the very same argument you used against us two years ago to make us accept Shkanon.
But then, some time passed and it seems you grow bored of it and you started trolling people at /jp/ about the theory you were so upset people didn't accept. And now that it's accepted as the truth by most of the thinking community, and Umineko has stopped being discussed at all, you came and post this alternative.

Sorry, it sounds as something Piece would do. You know, it has this classy style.
>> No. 7797 edit
File 134170793254.png - (121.16KB , 426x480 , bea_akuwaraia1.png )
7797
>>7796
Hmm. I'll take that as a compliment. But one, I did not plan this from the beginning. Your own reasoning says so. Two, this is not my thread, and three, "goat" is simply the default name on this board.
>> No. 7798 edit
File 134171059424.png - (0.96MB , 1600x3500 )
7798
>>7797
Are you saying you were unware of this when you were fighting against Meta?
>> No. 7799 edit
File 134170422282.png - (122.74KB , 426x480 , bea_futekia2.png )
7799
>>7798
No. What I am saying is that "refute my own argument one day" was not something I added to my agenda. In the first place, I have left this place for good several times, and have become exceedingly proficient at it. If I did plan such a thing, I would make sure to get it done before any farewell.
>> No. 7800 edit
File 134173670417.png - (799.68KB , 587x539 , 134139476144.png )
7800
>and have become exceedingly proficient at it.
>I would make sure to get it done before any farewell.
Sorry, but these sentences contradict each other.
>> No. 7801 edit
Piece is a notorious liar. Don't trust anything he says, anon~
>> No. 7802 edit
File 134170927240.png - (120.83KB , 426x480 , bea_defa1.png )
7802
>>7800
How so? I have planned to leave in all earnest many times, and so I would attend to any unfinished business before doing so. The fact that I did not means there was not anything left on the agenda. I just do things on a whim.
>> No. 7803 edit
File 134173692011.png - (122.12KB , 426x480 , bea_komarua2.png )
7803
>>7801
How cruel. I always do my best to be intellectually honest.
>> No. 7804 edit
>>7803
Fickle people can't be trusted at face value on most things~
>> No. 7805 edit
File 134170855233.png - (120.30KB , 426x480 , bea_waraia1.png )
7805
>>7804
Fickleness simply means that my own personal truth is volatile and can change at any given moment. It doesn't mean I lie.
>> No. 7806 edit
File 130841902997.png - (89.42KB , 291x478 , kan_waraia123.png )
7806
>>7801
I will continue to believe what he says, unless I can notice an ironic or sarcastic remark on it. This is the path I have chosen, this is the only way. (and not only for him)
>>7802
I believe you noticed since that time that you don't want to stay out of this board for a long time. This is of course just an hypothesis, which works with what you have told us about it.
>> No. 7807 edit
>>7805
It doesn't mean you do. But you do nonetheless. At least it's amusing.

>>7806
Geeze, you're almost too good a person. I think ruci would be proud of you.
>> No. 7808 edit
>>7807
That's how anon from seacats is it. I'm still a skeptic with other stuff, though.
>> No. 7809 edit
File 134173742420.png - (123.69KB , 426x480 , bea_iiwakea3.png )
7809
>>7806
>>7807
In any case, I believe we are disrupting Squitcher's thread. You wouldn't want to derail activity by giving in to what the self-centered Piece wants, would you?

This was a nice distraction from the reaction images, but there is much left unsaid. After all, he intends this to be Shkanontrice's funeral, and I intend to help him along the way. I have much experience in arguing against this particular theory, after all.
>> No. 7810 edit
I wouldn't even be here if not for insomnia. The one night feenie doesn't stream Strike Witches, I swear.
>> No. 7811 edit
File 131245064334.png - (85.38KB , 291x478 , kan_defa2.png )
7811
>>7809
Yeah, I was thinking the same. Then let's continue with it. I said some time ago than the strongest red evidence of Shkanon was this closed room, and I still the same. However you showed another possibility and I'll give you that.
What about the rest of the game, as a whole. Show me what else do you have against your beloved theory.
>> No. 7812 edit
File 134173822716.png - (123.26KB , 426x480 , bea_gamana2.png )
7812
>>7811
So you want to continue right now, after all? That puts me at a disadvantage. I had hoped to wait for our host to return, at least.

If you put me on the spot like that, I find myself with nothing to say. And anything that I could say would be challenged by individual cases you would bring up yourself.

If I really must continue, then I would like you to take the lead. If that was the strongest evidence you had, then turn to the next piece. I would like a specific case around which to argue.
>> No. 7813 edit
File 131295167152.png - (85.87KB , 291x478 , kan_fumana1.png )
7813
>>7812
Sure, we can start with the rest of episode 6. All hints and references from the love fight.
>> No. 7814 edit
File 134173861510.png - (122.32KB , 426x480 , bea_odorokia2.png )
7814
>>7813
...I forfeit, for now. You win. Let that be the starting point of discussion when the host returns. I may make a few comments then, if I can think of anything to say.
>> No. 7815 edit
File 134173879119.png - (275.95KB , 900x900 , 2012013101.png )
7815
>>7814
Alright.
>> No. 7816 edit
File 132969770057.png - (187.27KB , 390x364 , Erika_Pose.png )
7816
Ah, interesting. As someone who has read through the entire series with Shkanontrice in mind and found nothing I could not explain, I am definitely interested in this battle. I'm confident that I can explain any so-called 'contradiction' in the Shkanontrice explanation in a satisfactory manner, and provide hints for it. Furthermore, I can show why any alternate explanation is less thematically appropriate than the Shkanontrice explanation.

Shall we begin with the logic error...? The theory presented by the opposing side, about Kanon exiting the room after the location check but before the seals were placed, is impossible. Meta-Battler granted Erika the ability to place duct tape seals retroactively. Therefore, after Erika checked the locations of all pieces, she performed a retroactive move so that both rooms were completely sealed at the time that said location check was made. Therefore, the seals were already placed at the time that the location check was made.

If this were not the case, Erika would not have made such a foolish mistake by performing the location check and then taking the time to seal the rooms afterwards. It would be blindingly obvious that someone could have escaped while she was sealing the rooms. If she did actually have to take the time to seal the rooms after performing the location check, she would not have employed this strategy. Instead, she would have sealed the rooms and then performed the location check. The fact that she did not do this proves that she sealed the rooms retroactively.


Furthermore, the solution to the logic error was said to expose part of Beato's heart. With the Shkanontrice explanation, it certainly does. The alternate explanation does not expose any part of Beato's heart at all. The idea that someone could escape a room while seals were being placed has absolutely nothing to do with Beato's heart and does not expose anything of particular significance to her. Therefore, the alternate explanation is false.
>> No. 7817 edit
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7817
>>7816
It's good to see peoples interested to discuss the novel, however it seems that I have made wait these peoples who already have something planned.
Would you mind waiting for a proper discussion to start ? Since these two have decided to discuss EP6, it is what we will do, and of course you will then have the opportunity to make your point.

I prefer to make this an orderly discussion if possible, my carelessness have let chaos enter this thread.

I also have something to say about Shkannon and Umineko as a whole. Just let me the time of constructing it.
>> No. 7818 edit
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7818
The strongest evidence for the Shkannontrice theory all comes back from the last 3 Episodes, and indeed there is a lot of way
I can see how it does make Shkannontrice a truth. But I think you guys are forgetting something. Umineko is a novel that counts
8 parts, do you remember how it was told that the first 4 ones were sufficient to solve the mystery ?
It seems that you guys took the "Don't forget the Heart" catchphrase of Will and forgot his "Don't stop thinking"
If it true that at its center, Umineko is a love story, can you really brush off the mystery ?
The way it is, Shkannontrice just seems to be used as a mean to escape the red truth, multiple personnalities makes
it way too easy to cheat through the red by twisting the sense of the words : it's just anti-fantasy.
I mean, can't you see by reading Umineko the love that Ryu has for the mystery genre ? I don't want to think that he would come up
with this gritty truth that just destroys mystery.

I may not think as highly of Ryu as a writer as I did in the past, but can we really accept something so far-fetched ?
This isn't even ignoring the mystery, it's ignoring the story itself as a whole.
Maybe I am counting too much on Ryu for this, but I want to believe, I mean, isn't a mystery novel a fair fight between the readers
and the author ? Do you remember Knox's words in EP5 about the presence of Knox's 10 Commandments ? It's a matter of confidence
between the 2 parties involved.
There is, after all, as much evidence for Shkannontrice in Chiru than there is evidence against it in the 4 first Episodes.
If you want to make me believe in Shkannontrice, don't forget the mystery and don't stop thinking : just don't show me a whydunnit,
show me the howdunnit.

This is after all, the reason I created this thread.
>> No. 7819 edit
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7819
>>7818
You know one of the main reasons shkanon became a thing in the first place was because many of the howdunits just undoubtedly became simple, something which every mystery novel does once you know the answer.

Take EP1 for example, dress up a corpse to look like Shannon, 2nd twilight was the one with Eva and Hideyoshi, in which Kanon is one of the first there, not even a real closed room etc, Kanon actually runs to the boiler room only to get stabbed, coincidence? Then of course since both personalities deaths are faked he can just kill off the rest simply by hiding in the shadows.
All the other games fit into one gimmick with shkanon or another, and have even been posted here on seacats once upon a time before the new site was made. Of course all the archives are lost.

When you know the answer years before the novels even ends, it is bound to feel like a kick in the pants, or otherwise a huge letdown when it turns out to be the answer. Of course DID is used a lot in Japanese visual novels, so to anyone well read will think of the DID answer silly even when it was first suggested, but that doesn't make it any more possible.
>> No. 7820 edit
>>7819
not that just being cliche made people dislike the DID theory
>> No. 7821 edit
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7821
>>7818
I can give you how-dunnit explanations for all the games, but I have a feeling you must already know most of them. Are there some specific murders you'd particularly like me to address? I could give you a full outline of every game, but it would take time to prepare.
>> No. 7822 edit
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7822
>>7819
I meant solution that actually enter the realm of reality and make sense.
We are presented in Umineko to truth that is said to be absolutely true, of course there are worldplay and such to twist the sense, I can accept that.
But then we are supposed to accept an anwser that can basically bypass all the truths not because of hints or logic, but because of how twisted it is ?
Killing personalities equal killing peoples ?
A person with multiples personalities has multiple bodies ?
What exactly is that ? It's exactly like the little bombs theory of Battler : it's not a mystery solution, it's an "anti-fantasy" solution.

It's like a game in Street Fighter when you win just because you fuckspam Hadouken !
I won't even mention that Personality Disorder isn't that convenient, but I don't really know anything on the subject.

Of course there's also the obvious stupid stuff like the fact that Jessica and George never noticed that they were dating the same person, or if nobody at all noticed the fact that a servant had serious mental issues.

I actually would really like to see those solutions for all mysteries, I heard some of them and most of them were like this.

>>7821
There are some. Just the EP1 1st twilight : the solution, supported by Will's hint, is supposedly that Shannon's body isn't even present in the shed. Thus, why Hideyoshi would lie about this ? Why Natsuhi and the others would leave him lie ?
Or if it's actually a fake body, where the hell does it come from ?
This kind of thing.
>> No. 7823 edit
>>7822
The themes of 'a single person being several different people', 'resurrection from the dead', 'the difference between furniture and humans' and so on are foreshadowed in the text over and over again. I have a feeling that many Shkanontrice deniers have never actually read through the series looking for the hints. When I reread the series, I saw how the themes behind Shkanontrice really were all over the place, to the point where I thought it should have been staring me in the face the first time.

The practical questions about living the life of two servants at once, and George and Jessica not realising they're dating the same person are valid, but remember that the gameboards are just stories. I imagine that Yasu is overemphasising the extent to which her own perception of herself as being multiple different people trapped in a single body was visible to the outside. In the real world, the difference between Shannon and Kanon (and Beatrice) was likely more an inner conflict of Yasu's, and I doubt that she actually dressed up as different people for different situations and such. This is just a device she used for the stories of the message bottles in order to illustrate what she felt to be the truth about herself.

It's true, it's impossible to reach the Shkanontrice explanation looking at the game from a cold and logical perspective, simply trying to find a way to poke a gap in the red truth and dismissing all the scenes that don't seem necessary to the mystery - looking at each murder as a stand alone puzzle and not a piece of a larger story. But I think that is exactly what Ryukishi intended. One of the themes in EP7 that it is a rare mystery where the 'why dunnit' was in fact necessary to solve the 'how dunnit'. In most mysteries, the 'who dunnit' and 'how dunnit' can be deduced simply from a thorough analysis of the puzzle, and then the 'why dunnit' can be deduced from that. Ryukishi wanted to turn this around, and so he created a puzzle which cannot be solved without looking at the bigger picture - the themes of the series, the heart of the culprit. I think this is what makes Umineko such a unique and unconventional mystery, and I don't think that it should be seen as a failure of any kind. Basically, one must first recognise the themes running through the story and the truth about the nature of 'furniture' before they can solve the gameboards. Once the core truth is realised, all the puzzles can be solved quite easily. But to try and solve them as simple puzzles without realising this core truth is quite impossible.

Remember that Bernkastel did warn you in the second episode's ???? that Beatrice's gameboard contains many unfair devices. You certainly can't complain that you weren't warned. And also remember that Beatrice didn't want to make the game this hard - she had to include some somewhat unfair elements such as wordplay with the red and multiple definitions of 'people' in order to satisfy Lambdadelta, who wanted a gameboard that Bernkastel would never solve in a thousand years. But Beatrice did make sure to present many hints so that Battler could figure this out. She constantly had to balance her own desire for Battler to eventually solve the game, with the need to appear compliant Lambdadelta's order to make the gameboard 'perfect' and 'unwinnable'. In that case, it's only natural that the game's heart cannot be reached through pure logic, since Bernkastel could easily solve a conventional logic puzzle, however difficult. But to see beyond the puzzle and to the fuller picture, the 'heart' of the story, is something that would be very difficult for Bernkastel to do. That is why from Bernkastel's perspective, Beatrice is an even more terrifying witch than Lambdadelta.

Regardless, I will start typing up an outline of the gameboards using the Shkanontrice theory, since I believe that my explanations are more plausible and acceptable than the examples you've listed. That will probably do a better job of convincing you than a simple defense of the theory could. That said, if you have read the Our Confessions summary, it shouldn't be too difficult to fill in the gaps from there, with a few small exceptions.
>> No. 7824 edit
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7824
>>7823
Ah, you actually managed to make me somewhat think of it as probable better than anyone else.
I guess I will never fully accept Shkannontrice as the truth, even with all evidences and everything explained, because I do see it as a conventional mystery and expect a fitting answer.

I have only red the VN entirely once, the DEEN bullshit once and some chapters of the manga so I can't say I've really be reading it to search the answer.

Then if Shkannontrice is true, what is it about in the end ? The tragic life of an androgynous child, which culminated into a mass murder because of false promises of love and a tragic childhood ? All carefully wrapped as an unorthodox mystery...

Hmpf. I really can't get around the whole mystery aspect.
It's funny, I thought I would be more reluctant to accept it.
Gah, it's really all useless after all...
>> No. 7825 edit
"No knox, no dine, no fair. In other words this is not a mystery." But it happens, let it happen. Golden witch Beatrice
>> No. 7826 edit
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7826
Hold it. I will not allow you to lose so easily.

After all, the other side has presented little evidence, and only conveyed their feelings regarding their silly little theory, which we who are not so foolish will not swallow.

Let us start with the logic error. I can hardly allow my elegant solution to that puzzle be tossed aside by the very same arguments I have already overcome.
>> No. 7827 edit
This is a response to the opening question in favor of ShKanonTrice.

First, regarding "[COLOR="Red"]3 persons = 3 bodies", I will argue under the assumption that it's applicable beyond its immediate context even though I don't think it necesarilly is.

It's no accident that I leave the numbers in when referring to the statement. The anti-ShKanonTrice advocate will often use the simplified term "person = body", which deceptively implies that the words are necesarilly synonymous. If the numbers are added back into the term, it becomes clear that it could instead mean "persons" and "bodies" are merely concepts that are numerically linked. [COLOR="Blue"]In other words, a person always has exactly one body, but that doesn't mean that a person is a body.

However, by either interpretation there is an adjustment to be made regarding dead people. Dead people seem to function differently: Kinzo being dead reducing the "existing person count" on the island implies that when people die, they cease to exist as people even if their body still exists. I will expand this notion further: [COLOR="Blue"]When people die, they cease to exist as people regardless of their body's status.

To expand the logic given this adjustment: "3 existing people = 3 living bodies". Again, I mean to say that the terms are numerically linked, not that they are synonymous. Note also that this does not mean "3 non-existing people = 3 dead bodies".

Now, on to how all this accounts for [COLOR="Red"]6 people: Kinzo, Kumasawa, Kanon, Shannon, Genji, and Gohda are dead:

[COLOR="blue"]There exists one particular body, namely Yasu's body, that has multiple "modes" of personhood. It can only be of one "mode" at any given time. Therefore the body can be one person at one time (say, Shannon) and another person at another (say, Kanon), but the body is always one person. Dispite time-sharing the same body, these people are still different people and can "die" independently of the body. Thus even though a live (existing) person necessitates a live body, a dead person does not necessitate a dead body. What we have with this red is actually 6 dead people and 5 (or 4) dead bodies.

Thus the two reds in question are reconcilable even if we apply the [COLOR="Red"]3 persons = 3 bodies statement beyond its immediate context.

By the way, although this accounts for a logically consistent explanation for the mystery side of things by itself, if you expand slightly into the fantasy side you can see that Kanon and Shannon do still exist even when not inhabiting Yasu's body, but only as fantasy characters. It's control over Yasu's body that makes them "real", and this is what the love duel is all about.
>> No. 7828 edit
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7828
>>7826
As far as I can see, you haven't countered the arguments I proposed here.
>>7816
Would you care to make a definitive counterargument to this? You're saying that we're failing to provide real evidence, but it sounds like you're the one evading the issue here.
>> No. 7829 edit
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7829
First of all, no matter how happy you humans are to accept magic, Erika being allowed to seal rooms retroactively means she had to adjust her piece's movements retroactively so that tape could be applied. Rooms that are sealed were guaranteed by the most generous Battler to hold with the strength of the red truth.

Even if the seals were laid with magic, which I will not allow you to assert while still charading as a human defense, Erika was only able to retroactively seal one room - the room with Battler's body - as the pieces on the gameboard had not yet been shuffled into the two guest house rooms. That was an individual decision by two of the pieces, Rudolf and Hideyoshi. Erika therefore could only begin sealing these rooms at the first point after this which she was not under supervision. Even if she was able to seal them retroactively, this does not allow for non-human explanations such as the pieces going in and out of rooms that are retroactively sealed, without breaking the seals.

If Erika viewed her actions in a meta sense, with the Eiserne Jungfrau representing her sealing ability, then it is possible for her to overlook the human time and effort required for a detective to reach the level of red. However. I do not believe this to be the case. Erika was simply confident that nobody would escape through the windows in the time between her sealing the doors and the time she moved around to the windows.

I have already demonstrated in this very discussion that the solution is not so easy and obvious. After all, you all have trouble grasping it, and are more happy to give in to magic than acknowledge it.

Let us address the heart of the tale. There is a tale woven consciously, contrary to the truth. Two, in fact. One is the witch's illusion of fantasy. The next is to capture humans for whom fantasy is not satisfactory, but anti-fantasy will do. The third and final layer is the mystery and truth. What is the anti-fantasy? The implausible that supposes itself a mystery, Shkanontrice. To ascend to the heart, the mystery, one must come to terms with the notion that 'Shannon and Kanon are not Beatrice.'

You see, if there were a puzzle that seemed to whittle down all possibilities save for this, and was presented as a way to have you give in to this single option left available to you, then it would be fatally telling for there to be a simple, yet easily overlooked flaw that brings down the whole song and dance. It would be risky to so strongly push the illusion, because as the wall threatens to crush your opponent, the hole to the side comes clear into their view. That is how this solution risks the heart. The existence of this simple alternative, that proves the other to be unnecessary and overly frivolous with the rules.
>> No. 7830 edit
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7830
Alright, I'm back.
>>7827
Try wrapping the text with [r ] [/ r] for red, and [bl ] [/bl ] for blue (without the empty spaces)

>>7818
>The strongest evidence for the Shkannontrice theory all comes back from the last 3 Episodes
>Answer arcs
Doesn't this sound fishy? Anyways, reading the question arcs with Shkanontrice in mind make a lot of things make sense. About all the incovenientents of DID, I have a theory about it.
Remember what we were showed was nothing but tales of the Rokkenjima accident, none of the arcs we read was relevant to what really happened, so my theory is that Shannon never really pretended to act like Kanon, Yasu had "Kanon" personality, but he was really never a servant in the mansion. It works perfectly for Kanon to exist in EP1 and EP2, because it allow Yasu to become the culprit of it.
EP3 and EP4 were written by Featherine, and she based herself on the original Episodes, and Battler memories.
>> No. 7831 edit
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7831
>>7827
According to humans, fantasy characters do not really exist. Correct? So your solution cannot handle a situation in which Shannon and Kanon are counted as existing simultaneously. Am I wrong?
>> No. 7832 edit
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7832
>>7830
The term 'answer arc' is a reader assumption based on previous works. They are core arcs. Furthermore, one source repeatedly expressed that they did not want his solution to be so easily reached by those who do not think, even at the end of the tale. That the tale should only be understood by one in a thousand. Based on this sentiment, does the supposed solution make sense? Do only one in a thousand come to your answer after finishing the tale? No. In fact, the opposite is true. To all but one in a thousand, that 'answer' is presented plainly and without any thinking required. As long as you continue reading the work up to the end, you will reach this answer. It is painfully apparent to me, and all, despite its inconsistencies. The general attitude is that 'this is foolish, but this is what is.' I disagree. I have more faith in my opponent than that. He continues the game with his reader even after the novel is complete. He is not so incompetent and unsporting as to play so loosely with his own rules. The inconsistencies are hints that this whole solution is nothing but a veil. Because it is so foolish, it cannot be so.
>> No. 7833 edit
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7833
>Even if the seals were laid with magic, which I will not allow you to assert while still charading as a human defense, Erika was only able to retroactively seal one room - the room with Battler's body - as the pieces on the gameboard had not yet been shuffled into the two guest house rooms. That was an individual decision by two of the pieces, Rudolf and Hideyoshi. Erika therefore could only begin sealing these rooms at the first point after this which she was not under supervision. Even if she was able to seal them retroactively, this does not allow for non-human explanations such as the pieces going in and out of rooms that are retroactively sealed, without breaking the seals.

I'm not sure what your argument is, but it doesn't contradict the way I see the events playing out.

- Everyone was divided into two rooms.
- Erika left the room that she was in.
- (Retroactive) Erika sealed both rooms completely.
- Erika got Battler to confirm everyone's locations with the red.

This is honestly the most intuitive way to read the scene. I don't know where these other explanations come from, but the idea that Erika would just assume that nobody would leave while she was placing the seals completely defeats the purpose of placing them at all. In fact, it's completely ridiculous. At the very least, if this was the case, you'd think she would at least take a look inside the rooms while she was sealing the windows, to make sure nobody had escaped before she placed the seals.

Your theory makes Erika ridiculously incompetent for no good reason other than to deny Shkanontrice. Now which side looks desperate?

That theory about Beato's heart is just incomprehensible, and I can't even fathom how you could actually think that Ryukishi was thinking that when he wrote that scene. If you really believe that every single hint that suggests Shkanontrice is just a massive troll, then there's not really much we can use to argue with you, is there? Any hints we show can just be explained away with 'he was trolling everyone and subliminally telling them it was the wrong answer'.

If what you're saying is true, Ryukishi is an awful writer for INTENTIONALLY making his whole game point towards an answer that isn't true just to make people think it's true for no apparent benefit to him. I just...can't even see how you can seriously suggest that. Much less suggest that and still claim that Umineko is a well written mystery.
>> No. 7834 edit
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7834
>He continues the game with his reader even after the novel is complete
Hahahahaha oh wow, wait a second, I need to recover from this.

Alright, I won't ask why did you change your opinion, but this thread shows how there's more than "one in a thousand" who opposes to Shkanontrice, darn, if you watch that terrible video you will see everyone got brainwashed by him. In any case, the game is over, and the author told us the answer would be basically revealed in EP7, and it was. So I see no other reason to think it's not the answer aside from being extremely paranoic.
Also, your post in >>7829 is beatiful, but it says nothing, sorry.
>> No. 7835 edit
>>7832
I don't think this is true at all. Shkanontrice is never plainly stated within the work, and actually, most people I have talked to don't fully understand the answer, and came to it from reading other people's theories rather than finding it themselves. Most people's understandings of Shkanontrice don't match with what I see as the truth and the heart of the tale. From that perspective, I would indeed say that less than one in a thousand truly understand Umineko.
>> No. 7836 edit
>>7831

Correct, for human terms. I suspect you are going to talk about EP5?
>> No. 7837 edit
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7837
>>7833
The way you 'see' the scene play out is regardless. I highly doubt you are even viewing the scene in question before making such claims.

The term retroactive comes from a previous scene where Erika is allowed to act under the assumption that the tape she received from Kumasawa was always sticky, meaning, though she had already taken actions from that point that did not involve the tape because it was rendered useless by Battler, she was able to go back and change her actions so that she could apply the now sticky tape. Please do not use the term 'retroactively' to mean 'magically.' To a witch, it is insulting.

What I find ridiculous is that a side which supposes itself to be one of humans would so readily and repeatedly push magic as a solution.

>If you really believe that every single hint that suggests Shkanontrice is just a massive troll, then there's not really much we can use to argue with you, is there? Any hints we show can just be explained away with 'he was trolling everyone and subliminally telling them it was the wrong answer'.
Is it that you can't, or that you won't try? If I can show that much of his symbolism has a double-meaning, and that the supposed only meaning is inconsistent and silly - as even the majority of believers in your theory actually hold - then I see no problem. I see your complaint here as "I am obviously right, but you are able to present an alternate solution, what the hell am I supposed to do when you will just keep arguing for this alternate solution in the face of my solution which is obviously right!?"

>If what you're saying is true, Ryukishi is an awful writer for INTENTIONALLY making his whole game point towards an answer that isn't true just to make people think it's true for no apparent benefit to him. I just...can't even see how you can seriously suggest that. Much less suggest that and still claim that Umineko is a well written mystery.
I can suggest it because his work is from the beginning a game. It is no intellectual game between reader and author if the answer is readily available to those who sit and read for a bit. Few people would surrender to the fantasy - anti-fantasy was the next trap.
>> No. 7838 edit
File 134170570626.png - (120.42KB , 426x480 , bea_defa2.png )
7838
>>7836
Not at all. I already know you will say something like "Erika never shows her first person perspective" or "you can easily assume that all actions shown being taken by Shannon and Kanon are being taken by them as one person" or other equally silly things that go against Erika's intention to gather everyone all in one place during the game.

How many master keys are there? There are five, one for each servant. The existence of a fifth key is evidence itself, but it is not what I am presenting here. There should only be four servants at once. Not five.
>> No. 7839 edit
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7839
>>7834
I don't accept 'sorry' as an argument. It says enough. I can even demonstrate that this third layer exists.

"But if you can, try to reach her feelings, buried in the deepest part of the story.
She said that she wrote two stories and revealed one.
However, that was also wrong.
She wrote three stories and revealed one.
By reading this incomplete manuscript, you will know two of those stories.
I would like you to reach the third and final one with your own power. "

The first story is the most apparent layer, the fantasy. The second, which you can understand through Our Confessions, is the hardly plausible anti-fantasy. The third, which you must reach by yourself, is the heart of the mystery.
>> No. 7840 edit
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7840
>>7835
Nonsense. You think that for every 1000 readers of the tale, only one person fully comes to terms with your theory? It's impossible to assert that and at the same time make bold statements like that anyone who doesn't yet accept it must not have ever looked for clues.
>> No. 7841 edit
>>7839
Sounds like a simple catbox
>> No. 7842 edit
>>7841
Or, choose your own answer rather
>> No. 7843 edit
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7843
>>7841
>>7842
I don't believe the heart of the tale is 'choose your own answer.' But if it is, then any theory opposing the popular one could be just as valid, because there would be no answer.
>> No. 7844 edit
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7844
>>7842
>>7841
I agree, but it seems it's much fun if we add it tons of symbolism double meanings.
>> No. 7845 edit
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7845
>>7844
If you want that, you can visit the animesuki threads. I have no clue what they are talking about, because they have been doing it for so long, but I'm sure each and every one of them could qualify as a teacher of literature. I wonder if they have approached the implications of Rokkenjima Prime and the Meta-world on a post-feminist worldview.
>> No. 7846 edit
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7846
>>7845
Alright, then which side has the elegant answer now?
Hinted the whole story vs AS level
>> No. 7847 edit
>>7838

Just because Kanon doesn't exist at a given time doesn't mean he hasn't existed in the past or won't exist in the future. In other words, the concept of "Kanon, the servant", along with a 5th master key, can exist without Kanon himself existing.

After all, if the same red statement about the number of keys were made at some point after an indisputably normal servant, say Gohda, died (a.k.a. "no longer exists"), we would still agree it meant that there were 5 keys.
>> No. 7848 edit
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7848
>>7829
>To ascend to the heart, the mystery, one must come to terms with the notion that 'Shannon and Kanon are not Beatrice.'

I should note you have yet to actually prove this, or even state it as a solid theory. The entirety of the second half of the narrative is against you. All you've really done is added lame alternate explanations for a few of the red vs. blue battles, but you haven't even touched the heart of the tale~

In essence, all you have tried to do is say "the truth is not Shkannontrice," but you have yet to show exactly what the truth is, and what all those scenes starting from episode 6 onwards mean~ Occam's Razor says that the simplest solution is often the best~

Frankly, I find the idea that "only one in a thousand will see the truth of the tale" is not only elitist, but stupid~ He also said in an interview that he wouldn't outright SAY the answer, and true, it is never outright stated that Shannon = Kanon = Beatrice~ He won't say the answer is "apple," but rather that it is "red and round," and that is what has been shown~
>> No. 7849 edit
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7849
I cooled my head off a little bit. I am back.

Umineko is this kind of fiction where I have troubles pinning down it's upmost core.
Is Shkannontrice the truth, thus rendering the wholething an unorthodox and retarded mystery, highlighting a writing full of flaws.
Or is it a masterpiece, a mystery that only few can get ?
If Shkannontrice is to be the truth, then the whole novel is a beautiful mess of inexperience. If it isn't, then what to say of EP7 ? What to say of Yasu ?
But it was said by Bernkastel that this Episode was made both to uncover the truth and to veil it. To end it all. Wasn't it ?

Ah, I am truly lost as to what to think of it. But thanks to you...

>>7827
AHAHAHAHA ! KAMPEKI DA ! ITS PERFECTO ! Thank you for reminding how utter nonsense Skannontrice is, and to highlight how many shit you have to make up for this theory to be true.
This is exactly why I won't ever fully accept Shkannon to be true.
Do we have to spend pages to pin down the meaning of "people" "body" "person" ?
This wouldn't even be an unfair mystery, it would simply be insane.

>>7833
Again. You are basically changing the way the scene happened. The key to the illusion isn't in what we see, but in what we don't see.

>>7830
Oh ? What is it again ? Changing what we saw to fit your theory. And this break a rule which I am most fond of :
Van Dine's 2nd : 2. No willful tricks or deceptions may be placed on the reader other than those played legitimately
by the criminal on the detective himself.


Yes, I am bypassing "No Knox, No Dine, No fair", but this a case of values. I won't accept a clumsy and badly written
mystery like Shkannontrice makes Umineko, no, even symply a bad and pointless work of fiction.
>> No. 7851 edit
File 134170855233.png - (120.30KB , 426x480 , bea_waraia1.png )
7851
>>7846
Do you think those sides are in opposition? I'm sure the people there gladly accept your theory.

Concepts like "Rokkenjima Prime" and the popular understanding of the meta-world originate from their users, if I'm not mistaken.

>>7848
Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't you once use Occam's razor to argue against this theory?
>Frankly, I find the idea that "only one in a thousand will see the truth of the tale" is not only elitist, but stupid~
"Dlanor calls it extravagant, but also regrettable. She says that if people saw the discarded portion, they might be impressed with the taste and the bold cuts, but without that, most wouldn't be as discerning as Beato would like. Although Beato claims that she writes for only one in a thousand people, she actually wishes that the other 999 people would enjoy it too. It's foolish to deny herself that by burying her own story in darkness."
"Beato says it's alright if her story has a strange taste to it that only one in a thousand can enjoy, since it's written by a witch."
"Although she was searching for someone who had love, I am sad to say that ironically, her heart was filled with anger at those who did not.
She once told me that it was fine if her story reached only one person in a thousand.

However, that was wrong.
Out of those thousand people, she wished her story would reach even one more person.
If you asked her, she would surely laugh and deny it.
But those were without question her true feelings.
"
It is not my own notion.

It's true that I haven't presented an alternate solution yet. And I may not, even if I could. For now, I'm just arguing against the established certainty.
>> No. 7852 edit
>>7839

The first story is the Fantasy, the second is the Mystery, and the third is the heart of the author.

The whole point of Chiru was that answering the Mystery itself is but a trivial step in understanding the person behind it.

This is why it irks me when anti-ShKanonTrice advocates accuse ShKanonTrice advocates of having stopped thinking.
>> No. 7853 edit
File 134170793254.png - (121.16KB , 426x480 , bea_akuwaraia1.png )
7853
>>7847
Well, I think playing with the red is something that this theory requires. Normally, wordplay like that wouldn't be popularly accepted. In the way which is bypasses rules about people and bodies, not to mention the red statement that the servant cannot be the culprit.

Certainly, I can't stop you from interpreting the red in this fashion, but I wonder if it should be the other way around. Shouldn't a theory be established on the red, rather than taken as truth and then forced into it?
>> No. 7854 edit
File 131295167152.png - (85.87KB , 291x478 , kan_fumana1.png )
7854
>>7851
Are you ready to continue where we left it yesterday? I would love to see the double meaning explanation.
>>7813

>>7849
Van Dine rules doesn't mean a thing in Umineko. Didn't you see Will lose against Bern? Also, I think you are thinking it too hard.
>> No. 7855 edit
File 134178160294.png - (236.34KB , 283x716 , modern misha.png )
7855
>>7851
That's a lot of fluffy words--meaningless, fluffy words~

When you argue against the established certainty, the burden of proof is on you~ When Beatrice argued with Battler that "magic exists," she is only able to do so because she offers many incidents as "proof," but you're not Beatrice~ You don't have such proof, you fake~

You have yet to offer a reasonable explanation as to why, if Shannon is not Beatrice, episode 7's revelation of Beatrice's heart focuses so much on Yasu's story, and how she adopts the personalities of Beatrice and Shannon~

You have yet to offer a reasonable explanation for why, in episode 6, Kanon and Shannon's loves are mutually exclusive, if they are not the same person~ We can throw Beatrice in there too, because she was also a part~

You have yet to offer a reasonable explanation for why, in episode 8, it is stated that Kanon ceases to exist when Shannon dies~

I used Occam's Razor to argue against the theory before reading episode 6. There was no reason to argue against it after that~
>> No. 7856 edit
File 134178172430.png - (122.40KB , 426x480 , bea_fukigena2.png )
7856
>>7852
The heart of the author is not the same as the heart of the culprit. If you are saying the third layer is about the author, then so be it. It's another interpretation, but I think mine can also stand its ground.

If you are on the other hand saying the third layer relates to the heart of this theory's culprit, I can't agree. After all, the supposed truth of that is rigorously pushed in the sixth novel, and the seventh is all about it. The details of the mystery were even kept hidden in favor of it. Since it's so obvious, more obvious than the mystery, I don't think it can be the third layer.
>> No. 7857 edit
File 132600768376.png - (134.53KB , 406x480 , bea_arigatoub1.png )
7857
>>7854
I fully know that, I just of it as a rule that is followed by Umineko. There's no point in having a mystery from the point if this rule isn't respected.
Thinking too hard ? I don't really see how. And if it was the case, I don't think it would be something bad.

>>7848
>>7855
It's all useless in the end. I know it is the truth, but I just can't accept it.
>> No. 7858 edit
File 134178234525.png - (285.29KB , 369x520 , 1339618150572.png )
7858
>>7857
Hey, I don't like it either! I argued against Shkannontrice up until episode 6. I am, however, willing to admit that I was wrong~ And I may have been wrong, but I still don't like the answer~
>> No. 7859 edit
File 134171272398.png - (121.66KB , 426x480 , bea_majimea1.png )
7859
>>7855
>That's a lot of fluffy words--meaningless, fluffy words~
Words from the author's materials are meaningless, fluffy words? Very well, I say the same about the entirety of the answer arcs.

>When you argue against the established certainty, the burden of proof is on you~ When Beatrice argued with Battler that "magic exists," she is only able to do so because she offers many incidents as "proof," but you're not Beatrice~ You don't have such proof, you fake~
I disagree, if evidence can be presented that the established theory cannot account for, that is enough. Regardless of what theory is put up in its place. If I assert this theory is wrong based on these things, I don't necessarily need to present an alternative in its place.

>You have yet to offer a reasonable explanation as to why, if Shannon is not Beatrice, episode 7's revelation of Beatrice's heart focuses so much on Yasu's story, and how she adopts the personalities of Beatrice and Shannon~
I concede that. But again, that won't stop me from poking holes in the way you believe this should be interpreted.

>You have yet to offer a reasonable explanation for why, in episode 6, Kanon and Shannon's loves are mutually exclusive, if they are not the same person~ We can throw Beatrice in there too, because she was also a part~
In episode 4, George is willing to slaughter everyone on the island to save himself and Shannon. Perhaps his family would have never accepted their union, and he would have to follow through with that intention if they ever wanted to be together. That makes his couple mutually exclusive to Jessica's and Battler's. What if a similar scenario applies to a second couple? That would account for it.

>You have yet to offer a reasonable explanation for why, in episode 8, it is stated that Kanon ceases to exist when Shannon dies~
This is obviously meant to deceive the reader, and is not stated in red. Only the following statement is. Furthermore, this is a statement relating to Bernkastel's game which is not part of the truth in any way. It's simply her own 'what if' gameboard, like the ones we have here.

>I used Occam's Razor to argue against the theory before reading episode 6. There was no reason to argue against it after that~
I think that just proves your usage of occam's razor is arbitrary, and so I don't really need to present an argument against it. Needless to say, however, I think there is a simpler explanation than three characters who are one roping in whatever accomplices they please, depending on the episode.
>> No. 7860 edit
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7860
>>7858
And that is why closing the cat box was the best option possible. We still have hundreds, millions of possibilities to explore. This way, Umineko can stay a perfect work of art, in my mind at least ~
>> No. 7861 edit
>>7853

Keep in mind that Beatrice had to push the limits of red in order to defeat Erika.

Also, red's "absolute objectivity" is an illusion to begin with. All that matters with regard to red's logical validity is that some interpretation works. But even then I don't think any part of my interpretation is a stretch beyond the admittedly dubious concept of a "person" dying without their body dying.

>>7856
I'm not talking about the culprit's heart. I chose the word "author" for a reason.
>> No. 7862 edit
>>7857
Dang my typos
"I know that, I just see it..."
"There's no point in having a mystery from the start"
>> No. 7863 edit
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7863
>>7861
What's the point in having an absolute and objective truth if it is meaningless in the end ?
>> No. 7864 edit
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7864
>>7859
I believe you are misusing those words, so they are meaningless and fluffy~ In the world of Umineko, the "truth" hardly reaches anyone. This is like when people misinterpret the not-thinking goats as insults to the readers and the fanbase, when instead they actually represent the people in Umineko endlessly tearing apart Beatrice's heart via discussion of the mystery~ Likewise, in the world of Umineko, it is unlikely that even one in a thousand people will realize the truth, but Beatrice wanted it to reach Battler, at least~

Furthermore, if we discard Bernkastel's game, which is "not part of the truth in any way," well, that's a pretty big assumption, don't you think~? All of the gameboards are hypothetical situations, and we don't know if ANY of them are what actually happened~ We must accept them as containing a certain amount of truth to play this game with the author, however~ I should note that this gameboard was created after Bernkastel hunted down the truth from countless fragments, so she knew the truth when she created it~ Therefore, it is reasonable to assume that she knows the truth of Beatrice's heart and created the gameboard with it in mind, even if she did not intend for it to reveal the truth~

And to drop another line from Bernkastel's game, I will strike down your theory about George by pointing out that he cannot kill an adult~ Since your theory takes bits of red and arbitrarily applies it to all games, I will take this bit and do the same~ I mean, I could point out all the other holes in that theory, like the fact that it seems unlikely that George would need to slaughter everyone to be united with Shannon, but it hardly seems necessary~
>> No. 7865 edit
>>7863
The red truth is not the absolute truth. It was stated to be truth and we accepted it. However it doesn't mean it cannot be used in wordplay.
>> No. 7866 edit
>>7863

Haha. That is the point. Remember, red is a witch's truth, not a human truth.
>> No. 7867 edit
File 134173565456.png - (122.69KB , 426x480 , bea_majimea2.png )
7867
>>7861
>I'm not talking about the culprit's heart.
Very well, but you can't use evidence about the relevance of the culprit's heart in Chiru to support the idea that we should understand the author's heart.

>Also, red's "absolute objectivity" is an illusion to begin with. All that matters with regard to red's logical validity is that some interpretation works.
If this were the case, the red would be useless and you could squeeze your theory around it if you really wanted to. In discussions between readers, one side usually draws a line at certain interpretations because they are far too ridiculous and take the red far too lightly. However, with the acceptance of this explanation, the limits of that have been stretched, because its truth is assumed as a given before any of the red is examined. After that, it's just a matter of making the red fit. If some parts actually turn out to be in favor, that's great. But not viewed as necessary.
These are all red statements which I think should conflict with this theory.
>The only master keys are the ones that each servant holds, one per person
>Kanon was killed in this room
>No one exists in this room except all of you. 'All of you' refers to Battler, George, Maria, Rosa, Genji, Gohda, and Shannon
>There are five, one for each servant.
>6 people: Kinzo, Genji, Shannon, Kanon, Gohda, and Kumasawa are dead!
>Only the victims are inside the rooms, and no other people exist inside the rooms.
>Therefore, both in the case of Jessica's room and the case in this servants' room, no humans exist that are you were not aware of
>Absolutely no factors other than humans participate in this game board
>The one who killed Nanjo was definitely a human
>Come home quickly, Onii-chan!
>There are no unidentified corpses, and all of the survivors have alibis!
>They definitely would not mistake any different person for Kanon!
>It is forbidden for a servant to be the culprit!!
>> No. 7868 edit
File 134171498968.png - (122.48KB , 426x480 , bea_fukigena1.png )
7868
>>7864
>I believe you are misusing those words, so they are meaningless and fluffy~ In the world of Umineko, the "truth" hardly reaches anyone. This is like when people misinterpret the not-thinking goats as insults to the readers and the fanbase, when instead they actually represent the people in Umineko endlessly tearing apart Beatrice's heart via discussion of the mystery~ Likewise, in the world of Umineko, it is unlikely that even one in a thousand people will realize the truth, but Beatrice wanted it to reach Battler, at least~
I don't think I'm misusing them. Just that there's a double meaning.

>Furthermore, if we discard Bernkastel's game, which is "not part of the truth in any way," well, that's a pretty big assumption, don't you think~?
I don't think so. That's exactly how the game was framed. There were many things different about it - master keys were treated as destroyed when their respective servants were killed, there were no keys except master keys, windows were all barred. It was simply a side-challenge to the reader, unrelated to the story, with a meta-purpose of torturing Ange.
>All of the gameboards are hypothetical situations, and we don't know if ANY of them are what actually happened~
They do however follow a single thread of logic, don't they? Let's say that Shannon and Kanon were never the culprits in any of the games. Would that be okay for your theory because they were just hypothetical?
>Therefore, it is reasonable to assume that she knows the truth of Beatrice's heart and created the gameboard with it in mind, even if she did not intend for it to reveal the truth~
>And to drop another line from Bernkastel's game, I will strike down your theory about George by pointing out that he cannot kill an adult~ Since your theory takes bits of red and arbitrarily applies it to all games, I will take this bit and do the same~
Nonsense. Bernkastel's game should be removed from any discussions about the true mystery. Of course, you make this point in full knowledge that it is ridiculous.
>I mean, I could point out all the other holes in that theory, like the fact that it seems unlikely that George would need to slaughter everyone to be united with Shannon, but it hardly seems necessary
It has been shown to be within his character to do so. I'm sure you could look at any motive and say the actions taken based on it hard seem necessary. After all, would you murder an entire family, if given the right circumstances? I don't think you'd even believe that the right circumstances exist for that. Therefore, you would find every motive lacking. I'm sure you find the motive behind the theory you're supporting to be lacking as well.
>> No. 7869 edit
>>7867

As for the culprit's heart and the author's heart in Chiru, I think the "culprit" referred to by Will in EP7 is the author (rather than the culprit of the story). Remember, his goal was to find "who killed Beatrice" and the "culprit" was Claire. We're not talking about humans killing humans here.

Of course I don't mean to just dismiss the red. No one wants red to be meaningless, least of all Beatrice herself. But you must wonder what it means if You are incompetent[!] hi-hhihihhihihihihihihihihihihi[!!] is "the absolute objective truth".

I will be the first to admit that seeing how ShKanon fits the Mystery requires working backwards from assumptions. In fact, I think it's a pretty darned ridiculous explanation myself, but does that make it wrong? It is not the most logical answer, but I believe it was the answer in the author's (Claire's) heart as she wove her tale.

Red is just as real as witches: In Claire's fictional cat-box world red may be king, but in the real world it doesn't exist.
>> No. 7870 edit
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7870
>>7869
From the perspective of the popular theory, I believe the answer to 'who killed Beatrice' was Lion, not Claire. Claire was introduced instead as a guise for the culprit of the tale.

>Of course I don't mean to just dismiss the red. No one wants red to be meaningless, least of all Beatrice herself. But you must wonder what it means if You are incompetent[!] hi-hhihihhihihihihihihihihihihi[!!] is "the absolute objective truth".
"You are incompetent" seems quite true to me given Meta-Battler's actions in episode 2, but there are some things said in red which are not even statements, and so cannot be true or false. At least I will allow for those to be ignored. And 'ignored' is not really the right word, because even if you take them into account, you can't do anything with them.

>I will be the first to admit that seeing how ShKanon fits the Mystery requires working backwards from assumptions. In fact, I think it's a pretty darned ridiculous explanation myself, but does that make it wrong? It is not the most logical answer, but I believe it was the answer in the author's (Claire's) heart as she wove her tale.
This is the usual position, isn't it? That it is ridiculous and contradictory but nonetheless true. Normally, being ridiculous and contradictory would be a reason to throw away a theory. If one was to include a false answer in their work, it would make sense for that answer to be of this nature. After all, if the false answer made perfect sense and accounted for everything, how could someone be in the wrong for reaching it? Or rather, how could they go further to reach the true answer? Even if they did reach it, it would seem equally plausible, and there would be no way to discern.

>Red is just as real as witches: In Claire's fictional cat-box world red may be king, but in the real world it doesn't exist.
It doesn't need to exist in the real world. It would even be appropriate for red text to be spoken in the highest level of the tale, meaning the novel's own reality. Of course, it would be ineffectual to all the inhabitants of that reality, but since the novel is also communicating to people who exist above that reality, the readers, it can speak to them about what is true in that lower reality.
>> No. 7871 edit
File 134178952168.png - (121.62KB , 426x480 , bea_nayamua2.png )
7871
Even though I was only supposed to be helping the host, it looks like he gave up and I've been making most of the posts for his side. So too has the other side's posting dried up, likely because they realize it is not going anywhere. How boring.

I have other things on my mind, so I'll withdraw for now.
>> No. 7872 edit
>>7870

I said it was ridiculous and not the most logical answer, but I never said it was contrary. In fact I've spent several fairly detailed posts explaining why it isn't logically contrary so I'd rather you not reword my position the way that you did.

In a logic debate the ShKanonTrice position is actually quite difficult to advocate for the exact reasons you have against it. The point, however, is that "truth" is not all about "logic", but also about "love". That being said, there really isn't much else I can say to advance ShKanonTrice on the logic front beyond demonstrating that it works logically on some level, or attacking the relative plausibility of alternative theories.

On that note, the idea that Meta-Erika for some reason didn't realize that there was some gap in time before she herself taped those windows for the logic error I find to be even more unacceptable than red allowing for "personality death" wordplay. We may have an excuse, because we could be fooled by the magic scene tricking us or whatever, but Erika herself? She's the one who would have had to actually take the time to do it.

But logic and plausibility aside, I do not understand how people can just dismiss the monstrous levels of thematic evidence for ShKanon in EP6-EP8 as meaningless. I guess some people just refuse to accept a puzzle without an absolute answer.
>> No. 7873 edit
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7873
>>7870
>This is the usual position, isn't it? That it is ridiculous and contradictory but nonetheless true. Normally, being ridiculous and contradictory would be a reason to throw away a theory. If one was to include a false answer in their work, it would make sense for that answer to be of this nature. After all, if the false answer made perfect sense and accounted for everything, how could someone be in the wrong for reaching it? Or rather, how could they go further to reach the true answer? Even if they did reach it, it would seem equally plausible, and there would be no way to discern.

It is that way because what Ryu was trying to make wasn't a mystery. This is often what I said we couldn't overlook and give in to Shkannontrice, but after much thinking, it became unfortunately apparent that the whole goal of Umineko isn't the mystery itself, Chiru as a whole, especially the last 2 Episodes, shows this far too well. It seems to be more of a sort of meta-awareness message on writing than an actual story.
And this is exactly why I hate it so much. But unfortunately the evidence can't be ignored.
I guess if you could actually explain Yasu with something other than Shkannontrice and make it have sense, it could become an acceptable truth. But it is most difficult.
I thought Shkannontrice believers forgot the mystery, but it seems that it is Ryu himself who put the mystery aside. And Chiru is a sad monument of this.

Well, as long as the catbox is closed, we can still try and try to find another truth, and that is the last container of our hopes.

It's strange how much I changed my mind in no less more than 24 hours.
I am sorry if I have given up and let you fight alone. But I will and forever will be against Shkannon, as true as it may be. And these peoples here still have said ridiculous things and didn't manage to pass through some reds with a satisfying answer ~
>> No. 7874 edit
>>7873
>satisfying
well there is your problem.
>> No. 7875 edit
>>7873

I can respect not being happy with with ShKanonTrice and Chiru's message. Of course people will be disappointed when Umineko turns out to be a completely different kind of story to what they had been pulled into. I'm just fortunate enough myself to actually like philosophical crap.
>> No. 7876 edit
>>7871
sry
>> No. 7877 edit
File 132907931714.png - (154.35KB , 340x366 , Erika_Grin.png )
7877
You probably should have stopped expecting an orthodox mystery at the point where Kanon had a lightsaber duel with a goat. Nipa~
>> No. 7878 edit
File 131239889926.png - (85.73KB , 291x478 , kan_komarua134.png )
7878
>>7877
I wouldn't call it orthodox, but it wasn't unfair. Read again at the letter in EP1. Can this be any more obvious?

However, Kinzo-sama, in order to give a chance to leave the wealth and fortune to everyone, added a special clause. Only when that clause is satisfied, I’ll eternally lose my right to collect the gold and the interest.”

――Special clause――

When the contract ends, Beatrice will have the right to collect the gold and the interest. However, if a person who disclose the hidden gold of the contract appears, Beatrice must eternally and completely abdicate of this right …From now on, the collect of the interest will be performed but, if whoever one person among everyone can satisfy the special clause,

Everything will be returned including the part already collected.

Furthermore, as an outset of the collect, I already have received in my custody the “Finger Ring of the Head of the Ushiromiya Family” that indicates that he succeeded the inheritance of the Ushiromiya family.
>> No. 7879 edit
File 132907858391.png - (155.31KB , 340x366 , Erika_Enthusiastic.png )
7879
>>7878
Agreed, I don't think that Umineko is unfair at all. If it was really unfair, one wouldn't be able to reach the answer before it was revealed, yet many did.

Umineko is definitely not a traditional mystery, but I don't know how anyone could mistake it for one past the first episode. It is its own special genre, and in my opinion, it's a genre that works.
>> No. 7880 edit
>>7877
>> No. 7881 edit
>>7877
>> No. 7882 edit
>>7877
>> No. 7883 edit
File 134183905848.png - (127.85KB , 379x480 , bea_waraib7up.png )
7883
Seriously what the fuck is happening with my computer. Sorry about that.

>>7877
Honestly, whether or not it is a classical, orthodox or whatever kind of mystery isn't what I dislike so much about the answer.
I actually really like the "witch's side of truth" that we are shown, and it's really one of the things that I liked the most in Umineko, I find it to be a brilliant writing technique honestly, and it makes for really deep conflicts and debates on the subject of truth, and Umineko really took advantage of it well.
Even with Shkannontrice, this is something that can't be forgotten and is one the great qualities of the novel, in my eyes at least.

So,w hat I dislike is not the fact that it's not a classical mystery, but that the mystery is, itself, in the end, meaningless.

When I say that it is an unfair mystery, it's because the truth is nor found by logic and deduction, nor with what we are given to fight : the red truth.
The story as a whole then just becomes the author's way of making us understand the unfamous "Don't forget the heart".
It's his way of telling his opinion on the mystery genre as a whole and really almost manipulating us to understand this.
Looking back at Chiru and reading inbetween the lines, this is everywhere, and honestly it really makes me think how much the author himself s so close to Beatrice, with his clumsy and awkward way of communicating.

And Umineko would, in fact, just be this ? 8 Episodes dedicated to a writing point of view trampling over an actual story.

I guess that makes the whole thing a real work of heart, but in the same time it makes it so flawed...
Ah, I have thought about it too much didn't I ?
It's time I let it rest.
>> No. 7884 edit
>>7883
Ahahahaha. I get it, I get it now, how magnificent, and how utterly foolish at the same time...

"Don't forget the heart, because in the end, the why matters more than the how, the heart matters more than the ways.
Without love it cannot be seen, don't lose focus of the heart, and try, don't stop thinking, because this heart, this tale,
is a mystery.
Maybe only one in a thousand will get that tale, but I wish one more would, but it can't be helped, the solution can't be reached
without opening your heart. You just have to turn the chessboard over, and you'll get the solution from the culprit itself.
Yet so many trample on the witch's mystery and its twisted truth,did they forget that the key wasn't hidden in the witch's truth,
but in the very pen that writed this tale ?"


Ahahaha ! I can see it now... Everything, everything makes way too much sense now. I feel exactly like Battler at the end of Episode 5.
Ryukishi, how foolish and beautiful at the same time. All of this for that answer, but I guess it cannot be otherwise, this is
the way everything was built for.

Ah, I feel stupid to have made this thread now, but it did made me think and I think I really do, now, understand Umineko.
Ryukishi is probably saying "Just as planned" now isn't he ?
>> No. 7885 edit
>>7884
>writed
Fuck
>> No. 7886 edit
File 132907931714.png - (154.35KB , 340x366 , erika3.png )
7886
>>7884
He probably is, mi-.

Still, congratulations on reaching a level of understanding that many people who have devoted years to Umineko still don't seem to have reached.
>> No. 7887 edit
File 131810671345.png - (50.17KB , 291x478 , kan_defa22.png )
7887
>>7883
>When I say that it is an unfair mystery, it's because the truth is nor found by logic and deduction
Alright, solve first EP1 in a elegant way without Shkanon.
>> No. 7888 edit
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7888
>>7887
And without Hideyoshitrice
>> No. 7889 edit
File 132908977539.png - (153.93KB , 340x366 , erika1.png )
7889
>>7887
Actually, much as I believe in Shkanon, Episode 1 is very easy to explain with just a simple Kanon culprit + Genji accomplice theory.

Of course, it lacks motive, but all the 'how dunnit' can be explained without problems.
>> No. 7890 edit
File 132669325143.png - (117.70KB , 397x474 , realculprit.png )
7890
>>7889
So Kanon likes to dress like a woman? Like Beatrice, actually.
>> No. 7891 edit
personally that kanon=battler theory was fun too
>> No. 7892 edit
>>7891
O-Battler theory?
>> No. 7893 edit
File 132665921390.png - (134.76KB , 406x480 , bea_fukigenb3.png )
7893
>>7887
Eh, I'm not really that good at theory making. I don't really think EP1 would be the most difficult to explain without Shkannon though. Well I'm not against it anymore so there's no point in arguing ~

>>7886
Ahah, thank you, but it does still feel weird, I still have some doubts but it matches all too well for me to object it.
Hmm~ Did you get my paragraph in italic ? That's pretty much how I think Umineko as a whole could be summed up, I mean I know it's not really well written. But I think if someone other does get it it would help curing my doubts ~
>> No. 7894 edit
File 134186864248.png - (102.95KB , 356x480 , li2_seacats.png )
7894
>>7893
At the end of EP1, Battler, George and Jessica find Maria. And together with her is Beatrice. The problem is, who was this Beatrice? If Maria was with her, then it was surely the Beatrice she knows.
>> No. 7895 edit
File 132598871463.png - (188.32KB , 496x480 , bea_akuwaraia1.png )
7895
>>7894
Well if we don't take Shkannontrice, Beatrice herself can be anyone, I mean, it could even be Shannon, Rosa, Kanon, Eva, etc...
It depends on who is confirmed to be dead at the time.
And it doesn't have to be the same Beatrice, since we know Maria recognize peoples by their way of talking, if someone simply imitated what he though was Beatrice it could have been possible.
Then again arguing about this is pretty pointless but hey ~
>> No. 7896 edit
File 134186935619.jpg - (106.05KB , 588x753 , 93915139.jpg )
7896
>>7895
It's not pointless, this was another of the strong points of the Shakanontrice theory when a certain silly man made us accept it.

I don't remember very well the scenario, but I believe Battler confirms almost everyone deaths except for Shannon, Kanon and Hideyoshi.
>> No. 7897 edit
File 132600153547.png - (190.96KB , 496x480 , bea_odorokia1.png )
7897
>>7896
Hideyoshi too ? That is weird. I have now the image of Hideyoshi disguised as Beatrice burned in my head. Most disturbing.
I'm saying pointless because I now agree with Shkannon, that's what I meant.
>> No. 7898 edit
File 134186978077.png - (416.22KB , 588x753 , kasha.png )
7898
>>7897
There's a terrible sprite for that somewhere.
Anyways, in the end I didn't check the red of EP3, I'm sure there's a loophole for that trick. After all, EP3 and EP5 were supposed to be to be the hard ones.
>> No. 7899 edit
>>7893

Congrats.

">Ahah, thank you, but it does still feel weird, I still have some doubts but it matches all too well for me to object it."

Naturally, ShKanon requires taking a leap into a realm of non-absolutes.

">Hmm~ Did you get my paragraph in italic ? That's pretty much how I think Umineko as a whole could be summed up, I mean I know it's not really well written. But I think if someone other does get it it would help curing my doubts ~"

Yeah, well I certainly got it: reread my earlier post >>7852
But your train of thought poem-like answer was way more awesome than anything I've written.
>> No. 7900 edit
Gah, I'm a posting noob. Obviously... <_<
>> No. 7901 edit
File 134187694174.png - (135.12KB , 406x480 , bea_defb3.png )
7901
>>7899
That is freaking weird. Seriously I seem to have overlooked everything you said yesterday and actually discovered it in my head just by thinking. Was it subconsciously ?
Well even if I had seen it I probably wouldn't have paid it any mind, the truth of Umineko is not something you can understand just by having it in front of your face. You have to think about it to really get it.

Thank you ~
>> No. 7902 edit
File 134170793254.png - (121.16KB , 426x480 , bea_akuwaraia1.png )
7902
>>7887
I was the one who claimed it was impossible to explain the first novel without invoking Kanon or Shannon as Beatrice, but I knew this to be false. It is easy to demonstrate.
>> No. 7903 edit
>>7902
It was you? I remember a girl called Erika.
>> No. 7904 edit
File 134170711682.png - (120.95KB , 426x480 , bea_iiwakea1.png )
7904
>>7903
I like to take credit for what other people do.
>> No. 7905 edit
>>7904
So it seems.
>> No. 7906 edit
File 134173692011.png - (122.12KB , 426x480 , bea_komarua2.png )
7906
>>7905
This is awkward.

I'll be back later to submit my elegant and thematically relevant explanation of all games that does not use Shannon or Kanon as culprits, much less use them as the same person.
>> No. 7907 edit
>>7906
I'll be waiting then.
>> No. 7908 edit
File 134190775593.jpg - (30.09KB , 340x191 , 69-2.jpg )
7908
>>7906
Awaiting explanation, auu.
>> No. 7909 edit
File 132908977539.png - (153.93KB , 340x366 , Erika_Disinterested.png )
7909
>>7906
Mi-. I wonder if this is going to be that KnownNoMore's Rosatrice thing, or something that's actually original.
>> No. 7910 edit
What about the possibility of Shkannnontrice beeing true but without her beeing the culprit?

Besides, I don't really see how Shkannontrice would be so shocking and cruel for Ange...

Well, I'm looking forward to your theory aswell.
>> No. 7911 edit
File 132907233677.png - (154.01KB , 340x366 , erika2.png )
7911
>>7910
Remember, the culprit of the gameboards and the culprit of Ange's world are not necessarily one and the same.

I personally never have managed to completely decide whether I think Yasu is the culprit in the real world or not. It's something I think about a lot and I've changed my position lots of times, but I don't know if I'll ever truly decide. But Ryukishi intended those two days on Rokkenjima to be an endless cat box, so if I never find the truth, that's probably exactly what Ryukishi wanted.

That said, I'm personally of the opinion that Eva's diary just said something along the lines of 'None of them will ever come back', rather than some kind of detailed report on the incident. That's what best accounts for Ange's reaction in my view.
>> No. 7912 edit
>>7911
Well, the end doesn't make sense if Beatrice isn't somehow responsible for what happened. Battler didn't seem to care, though.
>> No. 7913 edit
File 132908977539.png - (153.93KB , 340x366 , erika1.png )
7913
>>7912
Oh, Beatrice is definitely responsible somehow, but you can find a lot of variations on that.

You could say that Beatrice just carried out her murder plan as described in the message bottles but something went wrong and in the end Eva, Battler and Beatrice survived.

Or you could say that Beatrice only intended to set up a fake murder mystery to get Battler to remember the time they spent discussing mystery novels, and someone else took advantage of the fake mystery to actually start murdering people.

Or you could say that Beatrice set up a fake murder mystery but one of the people who didn't know that it was fake killed someone else out of paranoia, leading to a chain of misunderstandings that resulted in only three people being left alive. I've also heard an interesting variation on this where Battler is the one to first kill someone out of paranoia and so Ange's distress at reading the truth is due to her brother being the catalyst for the murders.

There are probably even more possibilities than these. Truly an endless cat box.
>> No. 7914 edit
>>7913
>Truly an endless cat box.
I guess that was Ryucakes intention.
>> No. 7915 edit
File 134264309769.jpg - (50.98KB , 419x448 , lambda read.jpg )
7915
Your right, something like 'None of them will ever come back' would really work aswell.
I've got to think some more about it, but in the end it's really just as you said, it's an endless cat box...
>> No. 7916 edit
>>7913
> I've also heard an interesting variation on this where Battler is the one to first kill someone out of paranoia and so Ange's distress at reading the truth is due to her brother being the catalyst for the murders.

Yes, that was my idea. I like it a lot because it's actually a really good reason for Touya's PTSD amnesia, which otherwise just seems like an ass-pull.

Also, it fits in well with the dilemma Battler faces during the early episodes between accepting the witch and mistrusting his family.

Of course it's just a theory, though. That cat box...
>> No. 7917 edit
>>7916
So, in that Theory is Touya just pretending to have amnesia? Didn't he see a lot of Doctors?
>> No. 7918 edit
>>7917
Nothing of the sort. The suppression of his memory and identity is a subconscious coping mechanism for the guilt he has in being responsible for tragedy. His amnesia is no lie.
>> No. 7919 edit
>>7918
I see. Even if he didn't start the massacre I guess something like "Battler killed your mother" could work as well.
>> No. 7920 edit
File 132907931714.png - (154.35KB , 340x366 , erika3.png )
7920
>>7919
And let's not forget AuraTwilight's Ange culprit theory from Board of the Golden Witch's bad end. That explained everything perfectly too. *giggle**giggle*

It's funny, even though I know it's a joke theory, I do kind of love the spin it puts on some of the stuff in Episode 8 when you read it that way.
>> No. 7921 edit
File 134178172430.png - (122.40KB , 426x480 , bea_fukigena2.png )
7921
By the way, sorry to disappoint, but I won't be posting my theory. I realized that it is full of holes.

I hate to admit it, but I might have been fighting the wrong fight all these years. Shkannontrice does make a lot of sense, even to me. I just never liked how it plays so loose with the author's own rules. I think it's about time I gave in and admitted it's better than any 'truth' I can come up with.

Thank you for your assistance.
>> No. 7922 edit
It's perfectly possible to solve Gameboard 1 by just using Kanon as the culprit, I think.
>> No. 7923 edit
So I read thepart about the body count and you seemsorely misinformed ablut transgender and transexual semantics.
>> No. 7924 edit
omg stop posting it's already over
>> No. 7925 edit
File 13427330351.jpg - (6.02KB , 275x183 , afefa.jpg )
7925
>>7921
Good to see you. I was worried about whether or not you'd be coming back.
Glad to see you accepted Shkannon too. About playing loose with the rules.. It does play with the rules, but it doesn't play with the story, the narrative itself. And I think that was the point.
>> No. 7969 edit
File 134322788223.jpg - (122.29KB , 1000x707 , MWWLx.jpg )
7969
W-what? Everyone's given up already?

I have read through the entire thread, and I'm still convinced as ever than Shkannontrice is total bullshit. Nothing I say now will convince you guys, so let me just affirm my position. This illusion will not hold as long as I am standing.

In my opinion, KMN's analysis of the booklet 'Our Confessions' is the most damning towards Shkannontrice. His final part was out relatively recently, if you guys haven't you should take a look.
>> No. 7970 edit
>>7969

To elaborate, I can't begin to explain anything further because, in the end, both sides of the argument are pretty much solid. Exactly as Ryu planned. It's all a matter on how you want to view the story, I guess.
>> No. 7971 edit
File 134323353311.jpg - (464.65KB , 1500x975 , Konachan_com - 68137 furudo_erika umineko_no_naku_.jpg )
7971
Sorry for triple posting, but I've been thinking about this for while and I think I've finally hit upon what Ryu's true intentions are.

I now acknowledge than Shkannontrice is certainly possible given the themes of the story. Don't forget the heart, and everything. I accept that.

But what I can't accept is that Ryu let a perfectly brilliant mystery go to waste. There's no question he's passionate about the mystery genre, he's read Christie, Carr, Dine, Boucher, and he's shown enormous respect for the grandest game in the world. He knows what does and doesn't work. And yet, there's this Shkannontrice shit, along with a whole bunch of inconsistencies that come along with it. I simply can't believe Ryu would have the audacity to hoodwink his readers like that.

And there's also the matter of Our Confessions. Unless I've missed something among the 200+ posts, no one has actually explained the purpose of that booklet. It outright states that Skannontrice is the culprit. It outright states there's a third story. It's outright implies that Skannontrice is bullshit. We can gather either two things - either Ryu is trolling us again with the 'Without love you can't see it', or he's trying to tell us something else.

But then, if the answer is not Skannontrice, then what was the last four episodes for? Filler? The entire thing a bunch of red herrings?

No matter how I see it, both Shkannontrice and Shkannonshit are equally possible.

And maybe that's exactly what Ryu intended. Neither viewpoint is better than the other - he has repeatedly asked us to choose. It's fantasy vs mystery, after all. The fantastical, ludicrous solution of Shkannontrice versus the logical, intelligent solution of something else. It's like two different endings of a computer game (and it is).

Ryu has been writing two stories, both which are equally true. One implying Shkannontrice, the other (if KMN is correct) implying Rosatrice. In other words, everything I've been saying boils down to this: Shkannontrice is true for those who choose to believe it, but for the other die-hard mystery fans, Ryu does have another solution hidden beneath the story for us to find. Both theories lie within the catbox. None is more possible than the other.
>> No. 7972 edit
File 134323353311.jpg - (464.65KB , 1500x975 , Konachan_com - 68137 furudo_erika umineko_no_naku_.jpg )
7972
Sorry for triple posting, but I've been thinking about this for while and I think I've finally hit upon what Ryu's true intentions are.

I now acknowledge than Shkannontrice is certainly possible given the themes of the story. Don't forget the heart, and everything. I accept that.

But what I can't accept is that Ryu let a perfectly brilliant mystery go to waste. There's no question he's passionate about the mystery genre, he's read Christie, Carr, Dine, Boucher, and he's shown enormous respect for the grandest game in the world. He knows what does and doesn't work. And yet, there's this Shkannontrice shit, along with a whole bunch of inconsistencies that come along with it. I simply can't believe Ryu would have the audacity to hoodwink his readers like that.

And there's also the matter of Our Confessions. Unless I've missed something among the 200+ posts, no one has actually explained the purpose of that booklet. It outright states that Skannontrice is the culprit. It outright states there's a third story. It's outright implies that Skannontrice is bullshit. We can gather either two things - either Ryu is trolling us again with the 'Without love you can't see it', or he's trying to tell us something else.

But then, if the answer is not Skannontrice, then what was the last four episodes for? Filler? The entire thing a bunch of red herrings?

No matter how I see it, both Shkannontrice and Shkannonshit are equally possible.

And maybe that's exactly what Ryu intended. Neither viewpoint is better than the other - he has repeatedly asked us to choose. It's fantasy vs mystery, after all. The fantastical, ludicrous solution of Shkannontrice versus the logical, intelligent solution of something else. It's like two different endings of a computer game (and it is).

Ryu has been writing two stories, both which are equally true. One implying Shkannontrice, the other (if KMN is correct) implying Rosatrice. In other words, everything I've been saying boils down to this: Shkannontrice is true for those who choose to believe it, but for the other die-hard mystery fans, Ryu does have another solution hidden beneath the story for us to find. Both theories lie within the catbox. None is more possible than the other.
>> No. 7973 edit
>>7972
>>7972

Shit.
>> No. 7994 edit
File 134335611765.jpg - (730.34KB , 867x787 , 1342932406448.jpg )
7994
If shkshit is true, does that mean Battler has four digits per hand?
>> No. 7997 edit
>>7994

Does that mean you're rejoining the fight?
>> No. 7998 edit
File 134327426313.png - (67.39KB , 272x397 )
7998
>>7971

We talked about Our Confessions a little bit (the "3 stories" bit- that's from Our Confessions). I don't think KnownNoMore interpreted it right. I certainly agree with him that parts of it are... unrealistic, but I think the reason has to do more with Yasu (or whoever) just writing something unrealistic than "as an example of how not to think".

KnownNoMore's problem is that he is an intellectual coward who cannot face the prospect of non-absolute knowability. He hides behind a series of assumptions in order to create a situation where he can "solve" Umineko. If he couldn't solve it, he'd just add assumptions until he could.

One such assumption is that the games exist independently of the meta-world. He can't accept how there's a lack of objective information he can get from Ange's and the meta-narrative, which he seems to think is a liscense to dismiss anything from them as "not evidence". However, the games must have some relevance to each other, so what we get is KnownNoMore's interpretation that it's all in Battler's mind as he lies dying after Rosa killed everyone else, which is complete nonsense, supported in no way by anything. In fairness, KNM acknowledges that it's unsupported, but that's no excuse for trading the richly developed meta-fictional explanation, lacking in objective verification as it may be, for a completely ad-hoc explanation. So why does he? Because the ad-hoc explanation is compatible with his other assumptions and the meta-fictional explanation is not.

As far as I'm concerned, going against the meta-fictional explanation is unthinkable. The meta-narrative would have no relevance otherwise. And as such the fictional events depicted on the island do not need to conform to Umineko's reality in any way. If they do, it's because that's how the author (Yasu, Ikuko, or whoever) intended it.

However, contrary to this, KnownNoMore seems to think that the various games from each episode represent some kind of actual Umineko reality, but not THE actual Umineko reality. He calls the false games "counter-factuals" as if using the term explains how they are relevant to Umineko's true reality and why they can provide us with objective information about Umineko's true reality. It's an empty concept because there is no objective way to know what "facts" in each "counter-factual" are the ones "counter" to Umineko's reality, although KnownNoMore seems to think that the counter-facts are usually just the how-dunnit. This is entirely an assumption. To demonstrate how silly this line of assuming gets, KnownNoMore actually thinks Erika, her personality and all, exists as a real person in Umineko's real world. Erika is as fictional as characters can get (she's a blatant Mary Sue for chrissake!).

Then there is the red truth. KnownNoMore arbitrarily applies red to Umineko's reality itself, even though red is clearly introduced as a mechanic to be applied to "playing games". There is a clear difference in meta-level. If I spoke to you in red, could I dictate reality itself? Of course not, I have no authority over the truth of reality. But if I spoke in red about a fictional reality that I myself created (much like what is practiced here on seacats)? Then we'd have a different story, because I am the "gamemaster" of that fictional reality. Thus, red would be best looked at as a mechanism for "creating" a fictional reality rather than simply revealing it.

So what does all this have to do with RosaTrice? Everything. The point is that there is no reason to assume, as KnownNoMore does, that the games provide any objective information about what's inside the cat box. The games are fiction, and what happens in them may or may not tell us something about the author's world. That even includes red truth as well.

So, yeah, if you assume what KnownNoMore assumes, his answer is good. Brilliant, in fact. If I were creating a team of people to solve fictional mysteries, KnownNoMore would be my first pick: He came up with a lot of very good solutions I never would have (and some ridiculous ones, too), and I respect that. But, it's all built on a landslide of assumptions to mold Umineko into a perfect world for his own way of thinking. Then he comes out like an ass saying "I'm right and ShKanon is hopelessly wrong". Not very open-minded.
>> No. 8004 edit
File 134170793254.png - (121.16KB , 426x480 , bea_akuwaraia1.png )
8004
>>7998
>To demonstrate how silly this line of assuming gets, KnownNoMore actually thinks Erika, her personality and all, exists as a real person in Umineko's real world. Erika is as fictional as characters can get (she's a blatant Mary Sue for chrissake!).
And yet supporters of the official explanation believe Yasu actually exists! I would argue that she is much less realistic than Erika. She is convoluted nonsense. So it is entirely possible for Erika to exist, and for the episodes she appears in to be counter-factuals of the fact that she drowned before she could reach the island.

>Then there is the red truth. KnownNoMore arbitrarily applies red to Umineko's reality itself, even though red is clearly introduced as a mechanic to be applied to "playing games". There is a clear difference in meta-level. If I spoke to you in red, could I dictate reality itself? Of course not, I have no authority over the truth of reality. But if I spoke in red about a fictional reality that I myself created (much like what is practiced here on seacats)? Then we'd have a different story, because I am the "gamemaster" of that fictional reality. Thus, red would be best looked at as a mechanism for "creating" a fictional reality rather than simply revealing it.
This is the world of 1967
In 1967, in a hidden mansion on Rokkenjima, Beatrice-sama existed as a human
[In the past,] those two actually had a conversation like that in this place
What do these lines that seem to speak of the actual reality of Umineko mean to you? Are they just made up backstories for Yasu's fiction? That makes them quite useless.

It seems to me that many people are under the illusion that the "meta-narrative" makes any sense at all, contrary to the reality that it is something so multi-layered and contradictory because it is something that was made up as the story went along. Have you ever gone back and reviewed the meta-narrative of the earlier episodes? The tea party of episode 1 congratulates the reader for having finished Umineko no Naku Koro ni. Bern, a cat according to the meta-narrative, appears to encourage the player. According to interviews, which believers in the official explanation actually trust for some reason, Bern was originally not supposed to be an antagonist at all - just a character who could provide some hints to the reader as the story went along. Most likely, if the story hadn't been pulled in the strange direction it took on a whim, the ura tea parties would have always been collections of hints from Bern and friends, and the tea parties would have taken place in the same reality as the first few do, serving as overviews of the game that they followed.

For the first few episodes, the meta world is a very simple place. Meta-Battler is someone who fights simply to argue that witches do not exist, and he does this for no reason in particular - there is no mention of finding the truth, or helping his family, or recalling anything in particular, until episode 4. He's a piece removed from the gameboard who observes Beato's games, and most certainly does not write them himself. The reader is not given much reason to think about the world Battler finds himself in. It's just a device to explore the counter-factuals and thereby gather evidence. It clearly has no concrete existence in any kind of meta-fiction, because it acknowledges itself as a game that exists in our world. Thereby, there can be red statements about reality itself, which serve mostly as words from Ryuukishi07, the creator of Umineko's reality, to the reader.
>> No. 8005 edit
>>8004

yay

>>7998

What is the purpose of Our Confessions, then, if you don't believe it was used to emphasise the silliness of Shkannon? If Shkannon really was true, there would be no purpose in Ryu trying to hammer it into our heads again. He's already aware that Shkannon is believed by many, he's even given out the answer blatantly in the interviews. Our Confessions would be just a waste of paper in that regard.
>> No. 8008 edit
File 132907233677.png - (154.01KB , 340x366 , erika2.png )
8008
>>8005
Not at all. Our Confessions cleared up a lot of things, such as confirming that the accomplices believed they were part of a 'fake murder game' and incorporating some of the answers he'd given during interviews into actual official material (such as how Shannon shot herself without leaving a visible weapon in EP2). It's not a waste of paper in the slightest.

Still, I think your idea about both solutions being equally valid is a lot more polite than the nonsense about Shkanontrice being impossible and ridiculous that a lot of people come out with. It's nice to see someone actually acknowledge that some do in fact find Shkanontrice a satisfying and meaningful explanation.
>> No. 8009 edit
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8009
>>8004

>Most likely, if the story hadn't been pulled in the strange direction it took on a whim, the ura tea parties would have always been collections of hints from Bern and friends, and the tea parties would have taken place in the same reality as the first few do, serving as overviews of the game that they followed.

You're high.

>there is no mention of finding the truth, or helping his family, or recalling anything in particular, until episode 4.

Yeah, when Ange was introduced and catalyzed all these things. Think that was a whim?

>>8005
ShKanon is silly. No one disputes this. No one. So, let me reverse the question: What purpose would hammering the sillyness of ShKanon serve when it is already so obviously ridiculous?
>> No. 8010 edit
Sorry for the double post; I had meant to reply to this before
>>8004
>And yet supporters of the official explanation believe Yasu actually exists!
I do think Yasu exists, but also that she is largely misunderstood. The version of "Yasu" you speak of I probably think does not exist.

>>8008
Well, I certainly don't think there's anything wrong with the discussion of what's in the catbox. RK07 gave us mountains of material to work with. I just don't think there's a real "murder mystery" behind it for us to solve, since I don't think Yasu's a murderer in the first place.
>> No. 8011 edit
File 134346606868.jpg - (250.72KB , 691x518 , meta narrative.jpg )
8011
>>8009
>>8010
I think you should address my strongest point.

This is our introduction to the "meta-narrative." How can you argue that this is a fiction within a fiction? This line alone should signify that the meta world is a world that is involved with our actual reality, and stands above the reality of the actual Umineko world. Therefore, reds can refer to actual facts of that reality, rather than fictional works within it.
>> No. 8012 edit
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8012
>>8011
I can't fathom how you could take a line that's so obviously a joke so seriously. Are you going to say next that there's some kind of deep meaning behind Battler saying he's read Higurashi, or Erika talking to 'the people behind the TV screens' in Ep6?

Also, your point about the meta-world just being a way to give the player information in the first three episodes is quite clearly wrong, since the whole plot of Episode 3 revolves around the relationship between two characters in the meta-world.
>> No. 8013 edit
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8013
>>8012
Aren't you taking it to be a joke because it's convenient to you? It is the first line of the meta-world, I think we should take it seriously. It is a clear way to recognize what kind of reality we are dealing with. For Higurashi, you have some room to argue, as that is a separate fiction, it is not self-reference. It could exist as some kind of novel in the Umineko world. There is also no need to take Erika seriously, as she shows no meta-knowledge; anyone can pretend they are par of some TV performance. I could do it right now. But if I was the part of some TV performance, I would certainly not be able to know its name and state it and congratulate my viewers on having completed it.

You could perhaps argue that Yasu named her letters 'Umineko no Naku Koro ni', but this would surely have to appear somewhere in the endless discussions about the letters and the legend of the Rokkenjima witch murders. There is never any such mention. As for episode 3, I don't think that means my point is wrong at all. Even if it is just a device to deliver information about the mystery, it can have its own points of interest and driving forces.

I just think that the meta-narrative became convoluted exactly because it is contradictory and deviated from what was initially planned. The kind of reasoning people are now applying to the narrative on the whole, as if it can somehow be explained by Battler writing it all, is overly eager and, I think, results in them being caught up in the reasoning of later episodes that do not at all connect well with the established facts of the beginning.

You both might have different answers to the question, but do you really believe those reds about the world of 1967 exist entirely as fiction within fiction, and do not at all speak of the reality? Because if that were the case, there is extremely little in the story that is not meta-narrative, and you can explain the reality in whatever way you please.
>> No. 8014 edit
File 132908977539.png - (153.93KB , 340x366 , Erika_Disinterested.png )
8014
>>8013
>You both might have different answers to the question, but do you really believe those reds about the world of 1967 exist entirely as fiction within fiction, and do not at all speak of the reality? Because if that were the case, there is extremely little in the story that is not meta-narrative, and you can explain the reality in whatever way you please.

And that's exactly how it was intended. The whole message of Episode 8 was that nothing in the other episodes could be taken for granted, and for all we know the characters could have acted completely differently to how they were portrayed within the stories.

Incidentally, I've noticed that KnownNoMore seems to never bring up Episode 8 at all in his videos. Perhaps that's because its message is inconvenient to him.

Regardless, to answer your question, I don't see any reason to think that any red truth used in the context of the gameboard refers to something outside the gameboard. There is no red truth in the human world, so it would be foolish to say that we can know something happened for certain in reality.
>> No. 8015 edit
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>>8014

I'm sure KnownNoMore dismisses Battler's game in EP8 as having "no objective observer" (In fact, not only does he rarely bring up any of EP8, but when he does it's always in dismissal of that part of it; reds of course being the only exceptions).

And speaking of the "detective" role, the fact that the piece filling this role can change between games should also clue people in that the roles of any and all pieces can change.
>> No. 8017 edit
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>>8014
>Regardless, to answer your question, I don't see any reason to think that any red truth used in the context of the gameboard refers to something outside the gameboard. There is no red truth in the human world, so it would be foolish to say that we can know something happened for certain in reality.
Hmm. This is exactly the kind of nonsense believers in this explanation are forced to argue themselves into to cover the inconsistencies.

If I were a real witch, or otherwise God or something like that, I could speak the red regarding our world, couldn't I? I hate to admit that I am not. However. Umineko's reality is a gameboard, you know? And Ryuukishi07 is the God of that gameboard. Therefore, he can speak the truth in red. It is not the human world, I don't know why you pretend it is.

It perplexes me when you see scenes such as the one at the end of episode 8 with the statement The truth is written in this diary. and conclude that exactly because the red is used, it must be nothing more than a fiction that has no particular bearing on the Umineko world's reality. Highly ironic.
>> No. 8018 edit
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Furthermore. I do not trust the interviews myself, but as the other side does, I think you shouldn't be under the false impression that there is anything more than a single, conclusive truth that can be deduced when considering all evidence. Because that is what the interviews say. They do not say it's a cat box where the truth can never be discerned no matter how hard you try, or that multiple truths can exist. They explicitly say that if you look at all evidence, you can only arrive at one truth. Episodes 8 is not meant to be taken to mean that the truth of Umineko can be whatever you fancy. But we all already accept this. Or we wouldn't be having this discussion as to which party is right.
>> No. 8020 edit
I've hit upon a new train of thought which will enable me to post a long and concise argument on Shkannon soon, but first, I would like to know exactly what exact stand Shkannon advocaters take. So Madam Wanderer, and Madam Rika-Beatrice, would you kindly indicate your exact viewpoint out of the following 3?

Do you believe...(regardless of whether the games are fiction(and regardless of what's really true on Rokkenjima Prime))

a) Yasu is real, but is meant to be the culprit behind the first six games.

b) Yasu is real, but is not involved in the tragedy. The culprit is the first six games isn't her and can(or must be) someone else.

c) Yasu is real, but the entire thing is a catbox, yadda yadda. The games don't have anything to do with anything at all. They can be completely ignored.

>>8009

If people thought Shkannon was silly they wouldn't have believed in it.

But before we get into the argument about 'it's supposed to be silly', let's turn the chessboard around for a moment. Ryu has just finished eight episodes. It's been over a year since he produced anything plot-relevant. Why would he take the trouble to publish a redundant epilogue, and in paperback, much less? It's because he wanted to have the last word. It's because he wants to let the fanbase know something that wasn't known before.

At that point in time, I think, much, much more people believed in Shkannon that those who didn't. What would be the point of convincing the majority something they already knew? Unless he was trying to convince them of something else.

You could argue on other interpretations, of course, that it's a simple dramatization of Shkannon's murders or whatever. Again, as I said earlier, both interpretations have about the same possibility(but obviously I believe KNM's interpretation is more likely), so arguing about this any further would be a waste of time, I guess.
>> No. 8021 edit
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>>8017
I'm not really sure what you're saying. None of us have ever said that the red has no value. But it does have no value outside the context in which it is used, which is the gameboard.

I'm not sure why you're acting like the gameboards being written fiction in Umineko's world is a point you can dispute, since it is something that is established repeatedly throughout the series.

If you read a work of fiction and it said something was certainly true, would you assume that it was true in the real world too? Clearly that conversation must have happened in 1967 in our world too, then. After all, it's been confirmed in red in a work of fiction.

Furthermore, it's quite clear that Episode 8 takes place inside Ange's mind, so 'the diary contains the truth' being said in red is simply a representation of Ange's total conviction that the diary does contain the truth.

>>8018
I think you are confusing the gameboard with reality. The truth of the gameboard can certainly be reached, and that is what Ryukishi is referring to. I can lay out my solutions to all mysteries on the gameboard if you like. However, this has nothing to do with Ange's reality, only stories written within it.

>>8020
Those are quite strange choices you've listed there. They are neither mutually exclusive nor even exhaustive, so I'm not sure why you've asked me to choose one.

I believe a servant called Yasuda Sayo (or Yasuda Yoshiya if you prefer) did exist in reality and felt conflicted between three different futures, as well as unsure that she could achieve any of them. She also planned some kind of murder game to try and make Battler remember her, but whether she was just going to show the stories to Battler or to commit the murders herself or to set up a fake murder mystery for Battler to solve is unknowable.

As for your points about Our Confession, I believe I already gave an answer at >>8008 .
>> No. 8022 edit
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>>8020
Also, I agree that the idea that Shkanontrice could be pulled off in real life is absurd, but it is not at all a silly way for Yasu to illustrate what she wanted to through her stories.
>> No. 8028 edit
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>>8021
You start with the assumption that the red is in a work of fiction and use that to arrive at the conclusion that it's fictitious. What would that red even mean? Battler made up the idea of a hidden mansion and a previous Beatrice and a conversation, and wrote this into his letter forgery as a red truth? Does that mean Rosa's experience of meeting Beatrice is also falsified? Is the entire of Yasu's backstory in episode 7 just something that Battler made up because he thought it might fit the character of Yasu? Well, of course I believe that nonsense to be at last false or misinterpreted, but to you, at least, it should be true.

And if your view is true, Battler would only have two episodes to go on to discover the truth of Yasu's heart. How could do that? Isn't his entire discovery of truth nothing but a delusion in his fictions?

I don't believe it is an established fact that everything we see presented to us (aside from a few hand-picked scenes, I have no idea which you would choose) are a fiction within fiction. I don't think what is written in the message bottles are the episodes as we see them. That would be absurd.

Like this, the truth can be whatever you like. You become an author for the story, not someone who deduces. The truth of Umineko is that a servant named Runon, who wasn't supposed to be the on the island at the time, killed everyone. But Battler got away, unfortunately. Can you dispute this...?

It's irrelevant, but I am curious. What are your solutions for the gameboards?
>> No. 8030 edit
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>>8028
Why does Tohya have to have made it up? (I call him Tohya since it seems disrespectful to call him by a name he no longer identifies with.) It seems quite clear to me that Yasu told Battler everything at some point. He wouldn't be able to include details about things like Sakutaro and Mariage Sorciere otherwise. Therefore I think it's highly probable that the information in the gameboards is based on Tohya's memories of what Yasu has told him.

>Like this, the truth can be whatever you like. You become an author for the story, not someone who deduces.

That is one of the central themes of the story, isn't it? In an endless cat box, nothing can be denied.

I'm curious, if you think that the gameboards are supposed to actually happen somehow, why would Ryukishi even write about the message bottles and the world after the murders at all?

I suppose I'll give you an abbreviated version of my Episode 1 solution; I don't have the time to write it all out right now.

The motives for Krauss, Natsuhi and the servants to be accomplices are basically the same as written at http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost.php?p=3927670&postcount=26755 , under Accomplices.

During the late-night family conference, Beatrice, Krauss and Natsuhi tell the rest of the siblings and spouses about the plan, and show them the room with the gold. Everyone co-operates under the assumption that nobody is actually going to die and Beatrice will give them all part of the gold to solve their money troubles.

First twilight: Beatrice leads everyone to believe that she's prepared fake corpses and is going to lead the victims of the first twilight to a place where they can find safety, but she actually kills them in the shed. She then sets up something vaguely corpse-shaped in the corner of the shed; it would be easily seen as a fake if it was viewed closely, but at a glance, since it is in the shadows, it seems like there are six corpses. Taking risks is necessary for magic, so Beatrice is prepared to give up if someone notices that the sixth corpse isn't there. From there, Battler only glances at the corpses before leaving and Hideyoshi tells George not to look at the corpse, so it all goes to plan.

Second twilight: Eva and Hideyoshi go to their room, possibly as part of a pre-arranged script. Beatrice and Genji cut the chain, Beatrice kills them and the two of them proceed to act like they discovered the bodies.

Fourth twilight: Beatrice burns Kinzo's corpse, which she asked Genji to preserve after his death.

Fifth twilight: Beatrice uses fake blood to create the illusion that Kanon was staked and pulled the stake out. Then Nanjo and Jessica act like Kanon was killed.

6th-8th twilights: Beatrice has a master key, the lock to the parlor isn't even an issue. Beatrice made the phone call while Maria was singing, then left and locked the door.

Ninth twilight: The letter that Natsuhi reads is the same "Witch's Letter IV" from the second episode. As midnight is nearing and there has been no sign of Beatrice coming to take her and Jessica to safety, Natsuhi suspects that Beatrice may have been lying to them and goes to confront her. She finds her in the entrance hall and tries to shoot her, but her gun was never actually loaded and she is killed.

Tenth twilight: The bomb goes off, everyone's dead.
>> No. 8035 edit
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>>8030
I think it would be very hard for Yasu (if she existed) would have told Battler everything at some point during the two days. That's why I think the parts that Battler can't possibly know himself must prove that the games we are shown aren't exactly what the letters contain.

I'm sure I could compile a very long list of things Battler knew when it should have been impossible for him, and in doing so show what Yasu must have told him (by the official explanation).

Still, even if I find it unlikely I can't dispute the possibility. I resign again. Maybe all this is true...
>> No. 8064 edit
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>>8035
For the record, the scene at the very end where Battler and Beatrice talk on the boat seems to strongly give the impression that Battler already totally understands her at that point.
>> No. 8068 edit
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>>8064
I don't find that scene very believable at all. Why would Battler be fine with a ride on a small motorboat without his usual fear of falling?
>> No. 8134 edit
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>>8068
I find it odd too, but I don't see why the scene would be there if there wasn't some truth to it, even if it may be embellished somewhat.

And Battler did seem okay on the boat once the captain slowed down a bit.
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