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This is torture that will not end until you can believe in witches.

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264 No. 264 edit hide watch quickreply [Reply]
Hello, my first post here.
Here are some thoughts I made after I finished EP6 (I was aware of Shkannon, but I was more into Rosatrice at this time). After the manga finished more questions/thoughts arised.

1) Even if Erika was a corpse in the first 4 games, how it came that she was never "revived"?

2)I thought Erika was one of Sayo's personas. Why?
name: Beatrice (B)e(a)ri[c=k][e=a]; a nod to Beatrice?
appearance: flat chested girl; a nod to Sayo's true sex
Roses in the hair; like Beatrice
age: about Jessica's
introduction: by the servants, of course
interest: mystery; like Sayo+Battler
Love duel: she indirectly particapted in it and duelled
hates: denial (of her theories); in contrast to Beatrice

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>> No. 265 edit
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1). Not sure what you mean, she was created by Bern and was able to take part in the game thanks to confirmation that Kinzo was dead.
2). That would be denied by the fact they are seen together with Shannon and or Kanon at seperate times.
3). Erika was likely not an actual person in 1998, just a character to represent the witch hunters.
4). I don't remember the facts exactly, but I imagine that since she had no idea how her 'perfect' logic error was smashed caused her to focus more on that then anything else.
>> No. 266 edit
1) I know that Bern would/could place her on the game board. What I'm talking about is the "executed" tip in the 6th game. Did Bern needed a free place and a vessel to place "herself" on the gameboard? But by going with this argument nobody in the story argued that the man from 19 years ago who's an alternate version of Sayo.
IIRC pieces from alternate fragments weren't revived normally. So, that makes Erika (as a character) not originally created by Bern?

2) Well, I don't have the VN at hand now. Yeah the manga showed they were seen together. Mmh I have to search for pages where Erika see Kanon/Shannon. EP6 don't count if Erika hasn't the detective authority.
3) I know she represents witches of truth like how it is showed in the trick ending. But this is new to me. Interesting.
4) It fits to her. But in EP6 she liked to trick Battler by not telling him her moves. At the end losing the duel is what the story demanded.

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260 No. 260 edit hide watch quickreply [Reply]
Hello, i have been thinking for a while and I cant make a complete theory about this, please help me goats!

I am a true shkanontrice believer and I like the idea of the Metaworld(at least the first 6 episodes) being somehow a battle of wits between tohya+ikuko VS yasu´s letters, Tohya trying to figure out what happened in rokkenjima and stuff.

But firstly, Is there any hint given by the novel that the metaworld actually means that? I cant find it at all.

And do any of you goats know a theory that interprets all the meta skillfully from this point of view?

For me, Metabattler finding the truth about yasu at he end of episode 5 represents tohya finding the truth himself, But how has he been writing the episodes 3+4+5+6 all having the yasu solution even though he didnt know the truth back then? am I interpreting something wrong?

Also, what does it mean by Beatrice dying and reviving? does that have a deeper meaning regarding tohya finding the truth or is it just for the sake of he twin beatrices explanation??

I really want to see a solid interpretation of the metaworld, please help me!

Last edited at 15/11/03(Tue)22:38:20
>> No. 261 edit
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Yeah it was Ikuko who wrote the first few. Although some points I wrote in the link above are silly, the general message there is still solid.

Basically, Ikuko writes 3-5 to show they know the truth/aid Tohya, Tohya writes 6 to make a happy ending which theorists try to rip apart, then the rest is about how the public and Ange come to a conclusion about the incident. The stuff in Ep6 basically is a preview of the solution Ange reaches in Ep8, and is more of a show that Battler put on with people reviving and such.

Last edited at 15/11/03(Tue)23:34:52

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259 No. 259 edit hide watch quickreply [Reply]
Yeah. Unless, huh?

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198 No. 198 edit hide watch expand quickreply [Reply]
Hello, I'm new here and such, I guess(been stalking the site for a long time), yet never felt the need to post until now, due to having a theory and a few questions to ask. So, can anyone here answer why everyone seems so quick to think Yasu was Shannon/Kanon?

Or why everyone(almost everyone) saw our confession as the truth, when it would really seem more like a way of looking at everything in a mystery point of view?

I've been thinking for awhile now, that just because Kanon and Shannon couldn't be in the same room in episode 7, that doesn't mean that they're one and the same, if so then, how were they able to appear in front of Erika(who was the detective in episode 5?

That's kinda a contradiction, isn't it?

I hear a lot of people attacking this point by saying that was due to different Game Masters and such, yet wasn't it made clear in tips like Game Master Battler and other parts of the story that being a Game Master doesn't mean you can do whatever you want, due so many rules being in place.

I feel like half of the fanbase stop thinking once they saw episode 7, irony that's quite funny seeing how Ryukishi tried to avoid this all together with the Chiru arc, especially ep 7 with Yasu.
By the way, it wasn't just I, who happened to feel like s/he noticed from certain characters(mostly Bern and I think Battler at one point)hint at the writer might even lie outside of his work about stuff, was I?

I think something was said around the end of episode 7 from Bern and Battler in episode 8 I'll post screenshots of it later on.

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>> No. 216 edit

I am not going to bother citing articles, interviews, the manga or what have you, as I am essentially a French Formalist: What you see is what you get. Instead, I will try my hardest to give you an adequate explanation of what happened.

You are correct, in a sense. People did stop thinking, and the interpretation that it is because of some insanity regarding different Game Masters in the meta-world is nonsensical, however, it is still very likely that Yasu is the culprit because of what is said of the culprit and her means in Our Confession. If you view that Our Confession is as much a part of Umineko as Game 1 or 8, as I do, a view which I will now explain, things should become more clear.

Here's an assumption for you: Umineko is a deconstruction of the mystery genre. More specifically, it is a deconstruction of the Golden Age of Mystery, which features ideas such as the detective proclaiming "A-ha! I have solved the mystery." Reader beware, you're in for a spoiler if you turn that page... and this is a feature of the mystery genre which is mentioned several times throughout Umineko. While we are left without a traditional "answer" in the main bulk of the game, Our Confession provides us an answer that works in every single game board: Yasu is the culprit, and she has the resources to hire accomplices.

I now pose you the following idea: What if Ryukishi decided that while the answer is best left unread (a warning given at the start of Our Confession,) given as this is a mystery, and not a fantasy, he was obligated to provide an answer anyway? Would he not take all possible precautions to separate this answer from the rest of the games? You have to go looking for Our Confession, it isn't just there for you to read, within the bookbinding of the rest of the game. In that sense, Umineko even deconstructs this idea of turning the page and reading the "answer" to solve the culprit.

To cut to the chase, I think the fact that Our Confession is deliberately segregated from t
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>> No. 256 edit
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>I've been thinking for awhile now, that just because Kanon and Shannon couldn't be in the same room in episode 7, that doesn't mean that they're one and the same, if so then, how were they able to appear in front of Erika(who was the detective in episode 5?
>> No. 257 edit
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>> No. 258 edit
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234 No. 234 edit hide watch expand quickreply [Reply]
I believe we can all agree the "shkannotrice" answer is Ryukshi's way of saying "Here you go now shut the fuck up and leave me alone you pieces of shit. -_-"

I mean while I feel that alot of people out right dispise KNM's answer of Rosatrice, I do feel it has some merit behind it all.

Rosa being the culprit also does answer the Who, the why, and the how. Taking into consideration that we observe only the games Beatrice herself has hosted, Rosa being the culprit fits into a lot of the red truths.

I also believe it is to some understanding that chapters 5~8 are meant for more character devving as an over arching story while supplying the reader with hints on how to answer the original tale of chapters 1~4.

also all that Rose symbolism...

I would like to challenge counter arguments on this theory only as a way to further seek the truth. Consider this as another passing witch wanting to stave off boredom for the dread it might actually kill her.
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>> No. 247 edit
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But they weren't? Battler and the cousins even ask to see the bodies and get denied. The only time Battler even gets close to checking a singular body is when George is found, at which point a body that looks like Shannon is there in the distance faced down(I think Battler even closes his eyes to mourn George). I mean the only kinda difficult mystery in regards to Yasu was Shannon's Ep2 death, in which Battler actually checked the body by lifting up and looking at her face. Of course in that case it was suicide, which explains why Ryukishi changed Ep3 from "Land" to "Banquet" to be easier by showing more Yasu backstory, since most people didn't expect suicide to be an option. The more you know.

Anyway, the detective never sees Shannon and Kanon together in any episode either(ofc there is that ep5 thing, but one the other /theories/ threads explains that). I mean if you want to know how Yasu works with every mystery just read through the game again, you don't need me to explain them. I did back when the ps3 patch came out and I was still surprised by the amount of things I found(the voices were nice touch too).

If that doesn't satisfy you there is this thread that a new member (at the time) decided to make to play the devil's advocate for the "Yasu is wrong" solution. I just posted random things jokingly in that thread, but the others seriously debated a lot of points you may be wondering about.

There are also a number of threads in /theories/, while most of those are on other topics they do touch upon this quite a bit.

Again, you can't deny Yasu. Literally everyone has tried (even the people who supported it the most), but you are free to try and make another solution along side of it(Like in Ep5 when to reach a stalemate Erika had to make a new theory to cancel Battler's). In any case I think that is all that needs to be said really.
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>> No. 248 edit
Jessica was right beside Kannon until the moment he passed away in EP1.

but I will check out this thread.

Last edited at 15/07/17(Fri)12:38:27
>> No. 251 edit
I see your point, you mean "why the shkanontrice solution is assumed as the ultimate solution while there are so many plausible answers which answer the who how and whydunnit and also fit the red just fine like KNM's Rosatrice?"

In my interpretation, that's the whole point of Umineko, Ryu always intended to create a mystery with no clearly definitive solution. So Umineko is wrote in a way which allows many "plausible solutions in regards to who how whydunnit and fits all the red"

You see, all the classic mysteries are wrote in a format which allows only one solution, it’s just a matter of puzzling all the alibies and the hints and possibilities and you will find only one possible culprit, that’s a classic mystery right? If in a classic mystery you are able to find an alternative solution, you may be ruining the legitimacy of the author's answer. In this sense, a Classic mystery really is a logic game which a super smart robot will be able to solve by simply puzzling the possibilities.

But Umineko is different, it cannot be solved as a Classic mystery because it simply allows many possibilities to exist and then we goats keep ripping the guts of Umineko and forging many solutions, in fact Ryu does have fun reading all the solutions the fans make up!

That's why Rosatrice, black battler and many other solutions exist and remain consistent with the Red, that is the essence of the whole catbox thing.

BUT! That does not mean there is no ultimate solution as it does exist! The factor that hints for this solution is the "without love it can’t be seen"
One can argue Rosatrice needs love to be seen, but unfortunately not as much as shkanontrice.

Shkanontrice is heavily implied throughout the whole series, once you learn about it, you read a completely different story, trust me, you really do.

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>> No. 252 edit
Not sure if copy pasta, but yeah. This is a decent write up.

Although for records sake, again the servant red isn't applied to Umineko, and I don't think its ever stated in red that there is 18 exactly, just that there is no more than 18. So the only logic is "15 persons + 1(Yasu) + 1(Erika) + = 17 persons". So basically the only argument is the "Yasu's identities shouldn't count as separate", which you explain pretty well is the point of the story.

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